Saturday, April 7, 2018

The Freedom to Disagree


In the many genuine efforts by the body to move forward with the instruction to write a statement of principles to be adopted by the mutual agreement of the Lord’s people, and then to be added as a guide and standard for His people to follow, there is a common theme. The common theme, or understanding, is that we need to reach agreement to complete the task.  We have discussed this “agreement” in terms of either a majority agreeing, or in some cases complete unanimity of the covenant body. This suggests all or a majority need to agree on a specific statement for it to be added to the scriptures. Without agreement, we cannot move forward, a statement cannot be included in the scriptures, and our efforts seem frustrated. We believe until we can convince those responsible for the scriptures being published to include a statement in the publishing process, or convince those dissenting from a statement to agree with the prevailing statement of choice by the body, completion of this task seems unreachable at present. Why is this happening? What are we to understand by this process? Have you noticed that it seems to be in the apparent contradictions we face that the Lord can provide greater understanding?

What if we as a people cannot see what the Lord’s definition of “mutual agreement” is really about? Is it possible we don’t understand or know how to apply it? Possibly because there is nothing to compare it to here. What if His definition of mutual agreement has nothing to do with agreement at all? What if it has to do with the freedom to disagree, and yet remain together as His people, as bothers and sisters in deed? We should reconsider our definition of mutual agreement and replace it with His words. If we did, we may realize something. The Lord has given us His meaning of the term:

              “As between one another, you choose to not dispute.”

Where is the word “agree” in the above definition? There is no agreement found there, because it’s not required. Why do we think agreement is required? Where does the idea come from? Which being wants to force, or require others to agree? What if it has nothing to do with agreement, and everything to do with the freedom of choice? The freedom to choose for ourselves. What if it simply is describing a choice made by the individual, that they choose to not dispute. According to recent teachings and light provided to us, it takes strength of character to make this personal choice. It takes the strength that is reflected in our Mother. It required great strength of character for Christ, being in possession of the truth, to make this personal choice during His mortal life—to not dispute, although He was right all along.

Given this idea, why couldn’t we disagree respectfully about a statement of principles and yet have the Lord’s definition of mutual agreement with one another? We do not need to agree. The Lord has provided the freedom for everyone to disagree respectfully, by maintaining our unique views and understanding. Perhaps over time, individuals can be persuaded one way or another. Persuading others to our view is not required to obtain mutual agreement. All that’s required is for a certain number of individuals to make the choice to not dispute concerning their disagreements. At that point, for those individuals, they’ll have mutual agreement with everyone that they’ve chosen not to dispute with. As others make this choice, they’ll also have mutual agreement with everyone else. No percentage or vote of agreement is needed for that group of individuals, large or small, to take action based on their belief and faith.  Disagreement is ok, it’s good to have and maintain the freedom to disagree respectfully about many things, including a statement of principles. It’s our right and freedom to have independent thought. That comes from God. Our uniqueness comes from Them. If others believe a certain statement of principles has been accepted by God, even though you may disagree with it, as long as you have made the choice that it’s not worth disputing over, then you have met the Lord’s definition of mutual agreement with them. Everyone will have the freedom to continue to persuade each other while having respectful disagreement. The Lord’s “mutual agreement” protects respectful disagreement, it allows for the freedom to disagree. We believe respectful disagreement can go all the way into heaven.

There is a second theme within the effort to write and add the statement of principles to our scriptures. It is not as prevalent as the idea that we must agree in order to move forward, but it’s just as powerful in sowing fear. That theme is that if you disagree, or even dispute a statement of principles that is acceptable to the majority, then you are not abiding in the covenant and risk being excommunicated from the covenant body. At times this theme has not been stated directly, although it has been implied. It’s a powerfully false idea in our view. It suggests that, even as a body of equals, some have power over others. If this idea is true, then we ask: who has the authority to excommunicate another covenant brother or sister with who they are equal? What organization will they be tossed out of? Which permission slip granting access to a place of worship, signed by a presiding brother, will they be stripped of? There is none.

In our current state of blindness and ignorance, we’re not convinced we even have the ability to judge one another as to whether we are abiding in the covenant. Only God knows that. Only He has the authority to enforce the covenant. This was to be a “light thing” for us; it certainly should not be worth separating ourselves from the body over, nor should anyone suggest another be cast aside for not coming on board. Our commitment was that we would assist all others taking the covenant to accept the scriptures as the standard to guide their lives, and to lighten their burdens. We are to assist each other to abide in it, not cast each other out. Many of us have passed through the humiliation of being thrown out of our former religious organizations, for simply disagreeing. There was no freedom to disagree in those former institutions. Let’s not bring those false ideas with us. Joseph Smith, Jr., was right when he described the freedom we have to disagree, “I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be trammeled.”

If you are convinced that these two ideas should be discarded--forced agreement in order to move forward and the threat of being cast out of the body if you disagree, or even dispute a statement--and replaced with the idea that mutual agreement allows for freedom to disagree respectfully and even disputing a statement’s inclusion may have no consequence to someone’s covenant status, then we would like to extend the following invitation.

First, we would liked to express our view about one of the statements that has been written. It’s not necessary that you be persuaded by it, this is simply one couple’s view. We would have accepted many of the documents that were written from the start of this assignment. One of us was at the meeting on August 5th, and we accepted that document. It’s our opinion that had the August 5th document or other previous documents been taken to the Lord, He would have also accepted them. He is easy to be entreated. None of those previous documents were taken to Him at the time for various reasons.

On November 21st, 2017, the Lots Group did take their statement to the Lord to seek His word. It’s our belief that He responded to their prayer through Shalyce, the only women in their group, with the following revelation:

“Shalyce, I am here. And I can hear you. I know you’re scared, and it’s ok. But I love you, and I’m grateful for your effort. I am grateful for all of your effort. What I ask of you is not always easy, and sometimes it’s quite a sacrifice. But I will labor with you through all of it, so long as you come unto me, and listen for my words. This document that you’ve presented is sufficient for my needs. You have filled the measure in which I have called you. Your work has been valiant. You are correct in saying that there are many ways in which it could have come about, and there are many ways that it did come about. And I am grateful for all of them. At this point, you have a unity with the body. They agree with these words, and this document will suffice. Heed the words contained in them, heed the words contained and referenced in the footnotes. All of those words were mine. I want you to come to me. I will come to you, and we together can be one.”

We believe and recognize these words as coming from our Lord in response to the prayer of faith by the Lots Group and covenant people. In it, the Lord states that the statement of principles written by the Lots Group is sufficient for [His] needs. It’s not necessary that you agree with this belief. We have the freedom to disagree about this. We can continue to try and persuade each other. For now, we are persuaded this came from Him to the point that we feel impressed to take action to further demonstrate faith—in the belief that He will respond to our attempt in spite of our weakness.

This prayer has been provided online, together with the Lots Group’s statement of principles titled Revised Guide and Standard, for several months now.  The latest version of the Restoration Edition (RE) of the scriptures has also been provided for purchase since March 2018. We believe it is wisdom in the Lord to provide the means for this statement to be “added” to the scriptures by any individual that so chooses. No one would have to wait before proceeding. The power is within each person to take the individual step. This has already been done by some, and suggested by the scripture committee. It can be accomplished by simply printing out the Lots Group statement and adding it to your physical set of the RE scriptures.

We believe it is important to take the physical step of adding the statement to your set of scriptures in order to be obedient to His requirement. It’s a small thing, it would be done by very small means. The heavy lifting has already been done by those you produced the RE scriptures and the many individuals that contributed to the effort to produce a statement of principles—about which the Lord said He was grateful. 

To those who are persuaded to choose to not dispute this statement, whether you agree or disagree with the statement, we invite you to join together with others in approaching our Lord in prayer and fasting on April 14th, 2018 to seek His word in determining if He accepts this step as fulfilling His requirements.  To those who choose to dispute this invitation, we only ask that you also add your faith in prayer to ours that day, that our Lord will provide us with more light, or correction, to better understand His will for us. If we are wrong, perhaps approaching the lord together in humility, as a covenant body, will persuade Him to tell us His part. It is our belief and hope that He will respond.

Russ & Teryn Ellersick

135 comments:

  1. I support this proposal and will plan on joining in fasting and prayer on the 14th.

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  2. I think this proposal sounds fine, too, if it's what people want, but the revelation to Shalyce sounds like it contradicts the Answer and Covenant, in which the Lord said he was not pleased with our disputes, and we were taking his name into all our fights, and we weren't unified. That's the conclusion I come to in reading it, but I'm always willing to ask God for correction. We still have seconded motions from the last post to negotiate and vote through, if the body will take them up. Maybe this one can be on the list.

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  3. On Shalyce's revelation, help me out. Because, I can't reconcile the statement that the Lord was grateful for all of it with the statements of the Lord in A&C. That's not saying the Lots doc isn't good, because I advocated for it in the last post.

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    1. Hi Zang Family,

      Here is something to consider that may or may not be helpful to you. The Lord also said this in the Answer and Covenant, “I commend your diligent labor, and your desire to repent and recover the scriptures containing the covenant I offer for the last days. For this purpose I caused the Book of Mormon to come forth. I commend those who have participated, as well as those who have offered words of caution, for I weigh the hearts of men and many have intended well, although they have spoken poorly. Wisdom counsels mankind to align their words with their hearts, but mankind refuses to take counsel from Wisdom.”

      I was surprised when I first read this. I didn’t understand why God would “commend” those who had “spoken poorly.” But I believe He does, as He says, “weigh the hearts of men.” Shalyce’s answer doesn’t say He is grateful for all our jarrings and contention. But perhaps “all of your effort” could reference our efforts in seeking to do His will. It is possible He is grateful for “any person who labors on an errand seeking to do [His] will.”

      That last quote comes from this part of the Answer and Covenant, so you may see it in its proper context: “It is not enough to say you love God; you must also love your fellow man. Nor is it enough to say you love your fellow man while you, as Satan, divide, contend and dispute against any person who labors on an errand seeking to do my will. How you proceed must be as noble as the cause you seek.”

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  4. We agree with Russ and Teryn and are happy to join in fasting and prayer. We support this.

    Jon and Tina Saunders

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  5. "All that’s required is for a certain number of individuals to make the choice to not dispute concerning their disagreements. At that point, for those individuals, they’ll have mutual agreement with everyone that they’ve chosen not to dispute with."

    This is beautiful, peaceful, and written with much wisdom. It is logical, it is also loving. I don't know Russ and Teryn, but feel a bond of kinship, of family. I, too, will join in prayer and fasting on the 14th, with gratitude for their kind articulation of renewed hope, and with the confirmation of the Spirit to align myself with the peacemakers in this movement.

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  6. I made this comment last week somewhere in this bog and so here it is again for the record.
    John Dutson April 4, 2018 at 5:10 PM
    I was impressed to say. “I choose not to contend any further” and have therefore printed off a copy of the Lots G&S and put it in my scriptures.
    This isn’t about the G&S. This is about “CHOOSING” NOT TO CONTEND!

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  7. Thank you for this proposal. I have chosen not to dispute. As a sovereign individual I choose to love, work, and fellowship with those I do not know as of yet. I hope to receive charity in my heart so that really and truly someday I can say without doubt that my fellow brother and sisters in this covenant are most precious to me!

    I will join you in prayer and fasting on the 14th.

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  8. Thank you for the spirit in which you wrote this. My husband and I will join you on the 14th in fasting and praying.

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  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  10. My wife and I will join in fasting and prayer on this matter on April 14th as well. Thank you for this wonderful suggestion.

    Devin & Krista

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  11. 1 of 4

    To: The Movement

    There is an illusion that appears throughout our online dialogue, that “disagreement” is disputation, and disputation is anti-mutual agreement, and therefore any who think differently than the mass majority disagrees, are considered disputing, and are labeled “contentious.” Using multiple word bridges, disagreement has become equated to contentious. In that game, the only way to avoid contention is to never disagree with the majority.

    Some have regarded themselves high and lifted up above others by God, …claiming all the while that their hearts were right. They use, as their justification, their passive & temperate online conduct, relative to those who appear to be aggressively “froward.” They take the time to study how they are “perceived” by others, editing and re-editing their words, before posting, …so as to remove all evidences of aggression. They use their passive words to mask their aggression, so as to protect their “perception” of purity and election. They are not lambs, but they wear lamb’s clothing, when within they are ravenous wolves, a good scriptural description of “passive-aggressive.” In reality, their love is feigned, as their actions are different than their words, laced with hypocrisy and guile. According to John the Beloved, they have been duped in this illusion, as they are in fact wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked (Rev 3:14-17). These cannot survive even a glance from God’s all seeing eye, yet they pretend to share the same vision as God, when in fact, they don’t.

    The condition of our condemnation is that, as a people, our hearts are not pure, and must undergo the necessary sanctification and purification process, requiring nothing less than work, conversation, understanding, clarity, and waiting on the Lord to help us work out our differences. However, the work of sanctifying and purifying our hearts continue to get cut short, by opinion polling, rallying, politicking, promoting, and voting. As a result, our conversations have become too low, too mean, too vulgar, too condescending to be called of God. The hearts are more damaged, and the illusion increases in magnitude, making people certain that going with the majority is the only way to resolve our differences, because we are now convinced that disagreement is contention.

    Because of premature and immature voting, people have divided into camps, like unto the tribes of 3 Nephi 7. People are forced to prematurely group with those who they think are of “like minds.” And since most of us are all merely acquaintances at best, we have not spent sufficient time to converse and connect, knowing each other as friends, enduring through the difficulty of sanctification and purification. For this reason, our relationships are prematurely severed, due to it’s immaturity in nature, having had little time to develop any relationship worth sacrificing for. However, those who side with the appearance of a majority (the illusion), …these would be satisfied with, and justified by, an “alliance,” …to claim the task done.

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  12. 2 of 4

    Concerning an “alliance,” Isaiah was counseled to not trust in or fear an alliance (Isaiah calling it a confederacy). Instead, Isaiah was told to sanctify the Lord of hosts Himself, and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread. If Isaiah did so, the Lord promised, that the Lord will be a sanctuary. The Lord promised to be a stumbling stone and a rock of offence against the alliance, and many among them would stumble, fall, be broken, and be snared and taken. Given this counsel, Isaiah chooses then to bind up the records that contain the testimony of the law among the disciples, and wait upon the Lord (Isaiah 8). We too can use Isaiah’s words to advise us in this project. Rather than putting on the appearance of temperate conduct, studying how we are seen by others before acting, and trusting the alliance of a majority vote, …we should speak the truth, and wait upon the Lord to justify us, making the Lord our sanctuary. Those who fight against people in the Lord’s sanctuary will certainly stumble and fall.

    Nephi followed the same pattern of Isaiah, and was rewarded when the Lord declared to Nephi (paraphrasing): Blessed art thou Nephi, because you have with unwearying-ness declared my word, not fearing what man would do to you as a result of what you have declared, you have not sought your will, but have instead sought my will. Therefore, I bless you Nephi, making you mighty in “word and deed,” in “faith and works,” even that all things shall be done according to your word! (Helaman 10:4-5). Nephi would not trust in the alliance of men, declaring the truth, and waiting upon the Lord to justify him, making the Lord his sanctuary. This is a pattern throughout the scriptures for those who would be sanctified and purified in the sanctuary of Christ. It comes with the promise of the Lord’s protection, that they who fight against Zion shall not prevail.

    Compare the conditions of all of God’s blessed who followed the same pattern as Isaiah and Nephi, …and then consider the idea of replacing the pattern of the examples of Isaiah and Nephi with opinion polling, rallying, politicking, promoting, and voting, …and you will recognize that the latter can never sanctify and purify our hearts, nor provide sanctuary in Christ. Making the Lord our sanctuary comes when we talk/preach/rejoice/prophecy of Christ (2 Nephi 25). Not only does this describe the subject matter (Christ), it also describes the method used for our sanctification and purification, …beginning with talk, or conversing, engaging in dialogue. Opinion polling replaces and is a poor substitute for talking. Rallying, politicking, and promoting short-changes the need for more conversations. Voting ends all dialogue, sealing the decision and the people’s fate. The work of sanctification and purification must be done within the sanctuary of Christ, and where two or more are gathered in Christ’s name, He promises that He will be there also, making the “conversation” a sanctuary of Christ. We are also promised that He and the Father will make their abode in us, making us a sanctuary. These are all prerequisites to physical temples, and far more important, making YOU GOD’S TEMPLE (sanctuary).

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  13. 3 of 4

    The conversations among us are not easy. They are difficult, as emotions, ignorance, impurities, and unbelief get exposed. That is a necessary part of the process. We cannot sweep things under the proverbial carpet, only to trip, and fall, and break our necks. Exposing allows us to address the issues in the sanctuary of Christ. If we fail to address the issues, we will remain naked and afraid. If the difficult dialogue is permitted, to expose our impurities, …then, within the sanctuary of Christ, more light can be added, until we escape our condemnation, to be filled with light, becoming a city of light (Zion).

    Most recently, I have engaged with Jared Livesay. I have watched many of you get angry with him, and for that reason I have stayed clear of him, until I was impressed upon to consider his view. Although, in the end we do not agree on a final statement of principles, …within the sanctuary of Christ, I have come to see eye to eye with him regarding the Doctrine/Law of Christ, and the necessity for me to be governed by it. He has not tried to control my opinion, and I refuse to control his, but both of us have gone through the process of engaging in online conversation, to be more sanctified and purified than we were before. He only desires Christ, and I only desire Christ, …and when two are gathered in Christ’s name, there He has promised to be. We are currently in a holding pattern. I am waiting for further light and knowledge from messengers sent from our Father. Mutual agreement awaits more light between us. Many of you have engaged and had similar conversations that have also produced sanctification and purification. According to the description of their experience, the Lots committee has been more sanctified and purified for going through the process they went through. In the July 2nd meeting, with Jeff Savage, Kelly and Troy Ericson, Taggart, Jeff and Janeen Carter, Whitney Horning, and Q and I had a sanctifying and purifying experience. All of these, done in the name of talking of Christ, being temporarily gathered in Christ’s sanctuary of conversation. More is needed.

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  14. 4 of 4

    In our sanctified and purifying conversations, light seems to increase. However, when we use compulsion, opinion polling, rallying, politicking, promoting, and voting, …light atrophies, division occurs, and anger persists. Rather than pushing for another method that will certainly produce more atrophy, division, and anger, …and only an illusion of unity amongst those who are forced to take the view of the majority, …why not take advantage of having more dialogue that sanctifies, and purifies our hearts, until God makes us one in His sanctuary? If mutual agreement is required, God will not give a commandment without also providing a way for us to accomplish it. He has prevented the finalizing and publishing of the Governing Principles in the September Boise Conference. He has done so again in the Arizona Conference. Our hearts are still yet not right, but they can be through our efforts to be sanctified and purified by having our impurities and unbelief’s exposed, and replaced with light, through open, safe, conversations.

    Good-lookin’-out, LATE!
    Rob Adolpho

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    1. Rob
      I agree with the majority of what you have said here.I would LOVE to sit and talk about all things gospel with all the covenant holders but that just isn’t a realistic way of making decisions at present in my view, to many covenant holders would be left out of the process.
      Zion isn’t about YOU!
      It’s about US!
      Hopefully that includes you and me!

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    2. John,

      No, I disagree with you, but for good reason. Zion is not about YOU or US, it's about CHRIST! While you seek to finish the process with a "decision," ...perhaps you haven't been around this long enough, ...going for a "decision" has never produced anything more than bitter fruit.

      Those who want to partake in the Zion movement, must wear the garment of the laborer of Zion, and that (in my view) is sanctification and purification of our hearts, within the sanctuary of conversation of Christ. That was my point above, although looking back, I could have said that and not so many words.

      The illusion that you seem to be caught in is that this thing could be easily done if we would all just say the same thing; which is the effort of the united-vote-order, the Lots-majority, or the get-along-with-the-ruling-committee. What about preserving the individual?

      At the Saturday session of the Arizona conference, if you didn't already know, I was the loud opposition, saying "NO" in my native Hawaiian language. People boo'd me, told me to shut up, told me that I was evil, and that I was the source of darkness that made things gloomy, casting a shadow over all that was good, ...simply because I have a different opinion, ...even a unique opinion. It was a slap in the face, that the very next day, upon hearing Denver celebrate uniqueness, to hear the very same voices cheering as if they loved the idea of uniqueness. Pushing a uniform decision is precisely the same scenario. We like and cheer on the idea of one heart and one mind, when it comes to the definition of Zion. But, when push comes to shove, and mutual agreement eludes us, ...you would prefer a majority uniformity?

      The work of being one heart and one mind may not be accomplished in this task alone. But the same driving spirit of Zion's one heart and one mind must be exactly the same. And the ideas I have read that you prefer to promote, in the absence of something better, is the Lots majority, ...and I simply cannot accept that as true.

      Rob Adolpho

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    3. Rob, brother,
      I never heard anyone boo you, or tell you to shut up or that you are evil and a source of darkness? I was there, listening intently. Is this really true? If so, I am ashamed at that behavior and apologize to you.

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    4. Rob
      I guess I will agree and disagree with you.
      Zion is and will be brought about BY CHRIST! But without US it isn’t Zion!
      I’ve been involved in the movement since 2014, I know what’s going on.
      But why do you judge others heart? That’s for God not. I know there are those in this group right here who have been told by the Lord they are pure in heart.
      Judging some of your comments it comes across as though you have a dim view of the people here? I hope not and that your just frustrated?
      And yes, in the end all that really matters is well Christ vouch for us.

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    5. Eva,

      No need to be ashamed. We all make mistakes, and I have made more than I care to remember. You may have been there, but the view is very different when you sit with the majority. I wouldn't say it, if it were not true.

      John,

      We do agree that Christ will bring this. But we disagree on the fact that without US it isn't Zion. Christ can bring Zion with another people, meaning without US, if we choose not to be sanctified, and not to be purified. Christ will do what He needs done, to get a people who will be His. The question for us to answer is, "Will it be me?"

      You've made an inaccurate accusation, that I have judged the heart of others. I have not. I simply disagree with their opinions. Their heart is only known by themselves and Christ. They may be weak, foolish, and error prone, but if they intend to do right with God, only God can measure their heart and decide whether they are approved. I suspect that some are looked upon as deluded and even evil, but the Lord views them with compassion and understanding. He may find their hearts to be perfect. Like in the case of Jared Livesay, I have been given a view into his intention, and I judge his heart as pure, ...where you have accused him, and now me, as not.

      While you portray me having a dim view of the people, I disagree, as I am so optimistic that this is nothing less than Zion, the stone cut without hands. Though a person may misunderstand a great deal, still if they love their fellow man, relieve the suffering, give patience to the foolish, and give water to the thirsty, they can still be perfect in their hearts in my view.

      To add, you have not heard a word of complaint from me about frustration towards this project. Granted, many have complained, saying that this is taking too long, ...or that we have been at this for eight exhausting months, ...or can't we just be done with this so that we can get on to bigger and better projects? I have not even thought the idea. If intent can approach perfection, as Denver said it can, then I intend to follow God, even life makes it seem impossible to do, like this project. We may not know how the Lord will resolve the conflicting interests developed, due to this commandment for a Governing Principles, ...we may even be making a mistake, but if our intent is right, the process of sanctification and purification will finally make those who will endure it, into HIS PEOPLE.

      Rob Adolpho

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    6. Rob
      I stand corrected, I’m glad to hear of your optimism. And yes, he can find another people to establish Zion, when I say us I mean humans.
      I did NOT judge Jared’s heart or yours, but I can judge your words and if I have read your words poorly I apologize. But like has been said here countless times the written word is very tricky to communicate real intent. AND YES I have failed miserably at it many times.
      My bet is, and I told Jared this, if we could sit down and talk of the Gospel of Christ and His great work in our day and we would find we agree on most all that matters.
      Your brother in Christ!

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    7. John,

      I do remember you writing that. This is great, we now know that none of us in this conversation are judging the next. It’s a good conversation.

      Rob

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    8. As you know I have accepted the Lots G&S and also submitted one of my one so no I'm not what you would call "the majority" either.
      So, in addition to the G&S now in my scriptures I also have this there and in my journal.
      MY PERSONAL STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES
      I, as a disciple of Christ, seek to “equally walk truly” in His path back to the Father by abiding the teachings contained in the scriptures and revelations provided for our day.
      “What do we need to do to enter God’s pathway of endless progress? Jesus answered and said, The pathway is before you in me, I teach and display what the Father wants you to witness and believe. In the name of Father Ahman I testify to you, He who hearkens to my testimony, and trusts him who sent me, there is no end to his potential progression. His progress will not cease, for I demonstrate the pathway of eternal lives.”
      Therefore, I seek to become His disciple filled with faith, hope and charity. To be a part of a people of one heart and mind. A person whose life can reflect the two great commandants.
      “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself”.
      A life guided and maintained by virtue, by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned, by kindness, and pure knowledge, without hypocrisy, and without guile. I seek His presence, to be His disciple, to abide His covenant, and for the establishment of Zion in preparation for His return.
      I in faith receive the scriptures, current revelation and in particular, “The Book of Mormon” to correct myself and to guide my words, thoughts and deeds. From these I have adopted the following as Standards to Guide my daily walk.
      1.The Answer and the Covenant as given by the Lord to His servant. Link Answer and Covenant
      2.The Doctrine of Christ as given by the Lord at Bountiful. See (3 Nephi 11:32-40) see also (2 Nephi 31:2-21, 32;2-9)
      3.The law of Christ as given by the Lord in the Sermons on the Mount and at Bountiful. See (3 Nephi 12,13,14, Matthew 5,6,7) See also (Mosiah 2:9-40, 3:2-24)

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    9. John,

      Respect! I got nothing to offer by way of correcting how you choose to govern yourself. I have common beliefs just the same. However, the project requires us all to mutually agree. And that seems elusive. The work of conversing will be difficult, as we are all far apart. But despite its difficulty, if it is done by way of the ecclesia, as independent people within a fellowship, or with individuals, we can approach a “reasoning” and then a document that is mutually agreeable, to complete the assignment, NOT ONLY IN WORD, ...but also in deed, the way it was produced, without compulsory means, without hypocrisy and without guile.

      Thanks for sharing your journal entry,

      Rob Adolpho

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    10. Rob
      A quick FYI, Eva is my sister take it easy her, consider her heart, I think it’s a good one.
      Here are my thoughts on this topic currently.I have accepted the Lots G&S and placed it into my scriptures. Now the way I read your words that makes me the silly spineless sapp going along with the “majority” and you that “poor minority”. I think that’s is a wrong way to see it.
      I think, until we’re all under one roof so to speak, eye ball to eye ball, heart to heart, shoulder to shoulder our communications and decisions will be very challenging and require much compromise. Even over what we feel is best, to acquiesce to what will work for now to have agreement and peace.
      Maybe Zion is where we find a people CHOOSING NOT to contend and dispute.
      Free interchange of ideas is critical to Zions establishment. But beating others endlessly with our own prized perspective is destructive and is contentious I believe.
      “Be of one heart, and regard one another with charity. Measure your words before giving voice to them, and consider the hearts of others. Although a man may err in understanding concerning many things, yet he can view his brother with charity, and come unto me and through me he can with patience overcome the world. I can bring him to understanding and knowledge. Therefore if you regard one another with charity then your brother’s error in understanding will not divide you. I lead to all truth. I will lead all who come to me to the truth of all things. The fullness is to receive the truth of all things, and this too from me, in power, by my word and in very deed. For I will come to you if you will come unto me.” (A-C pg. 8)
      Maybe for now, as it says here, we should just view each other in charity and the Lord will bring the person failing in understanding to the truth of all things.
      Maybe it’s that simple for now, for us to get the task of preparing for Zion moving forward?
      And there’s this of course.
      “I would rather submit to the decision of the group than insist that my view be followed. For me, harmony between brethren is more important than getting what I think best to be followed. I believe harmony can lead to much greater things than can merely enforcement of even a correct view. I know how difficult it is to have a correct view, because of how often I have been corrected by the Lord. Sometimes I am humiliated by my foolishness when the Lord reproves me. Humiliation can lead to humility, but my experience is that the humiliation is accompanied by shame, whereas humility can proceed with a clear conscience. My experience with others leads me to conclude that if we can have one heart first, eventually we can likewise come to have one mind. But if we insist on having one mind at the outset, we may never obtain one heart together.” — Denver Snuffer

      Maybe for now the PRIORITY is setting aside our conviction regarding a certain matter and applying wisdom and charity to our circumstances which just may include subordinating our will and our precept to that of our neighbor?
      Well, that’s where I’m at regarding the G&S and why I placed a copy in my scriptures, along with my personal Statement of Principles.
      Hopefully you understand my position, I think I understand yours now better also.
      Your brother, a new creature in Christ Jesus!

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    11. 1 of 3

      John,

      You have not said anything I haven’t heard from you or others, what if the Lord only wants us to decide to agree? You think that turning the minority over to “simply agree” will be easier than turning a majority. Good luck there.

      Regarding your sister, what’s her point? Regarding your name calling, I have no idea what a “silly sapp” is, so don’t accuse me of calling you or your sister a “silly sapp.” And I would proudly wear the title “poor,” …and “minority” fits also, …however let’s distinguish that when you put them together to label me “poor minority” it sounds like you think I want or need your pity. I don’t. You can wrap up your pity and share it with your sister Eva. She seems to need it more than I, as I have no idea why she tried convincing me that no one at the conference said as I claimed, as if I wasn’t there, and I was creating this all in my head, C’mon! She claimed if it was so, she is ashamed and apologizes. Use your pity there.

      You think it only possible to work out differences face-to-face. I get that you prefer that, but that ain’t the case. We have what we have, and God saw fit to require what He required. So, rather than describe the conditions that would have been optimal, why not simply work with what we have instead?

      Regarding your “go along with it” advice, NOPE! I’m not a go-along-with-it person, otherwise I would be in good standing in the LDS church. You are recommending a similar scenario as the LDS. They think that I should simply sustain and go-along-with following the prophet. How is your recommendation to go-along-with the majority any different from the LDS argument to go-along-with follow the prophet?

      I, like Denver, would recommend no one follow me, or any individual/strong-man for that matter. I would even prefer them choose “group think” over following one single individual. Above all, I prefer to be judged by my own choices, to be fully accountable for what I think, feel, say, and do. From worst to best, follow me is the worst, “group think” is better, but a personal connection to heaven is best. And that’s what the epitaph, everyone keeps mistakenly quoting, is saying.

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    12. 2 of 3

      Following an individual is the easiest to corrupt. All you gotta do is corrupt one person, and the entire thing falls to peices. “Group think” is less corruptible, because the corruption must be distributed throughout. However, when a single group, like the quorum of the 12 are in cahoots, and have control over the public relations of the church, they use “perceptions” to corrupt the whole. So “group think” is only preferable over following an individual, …but still corruptible as the LDS have proven. The “majority claim” produces the same threat to the movement, claiming “group think” that cannot lead men astray, when countless times in history they have; most recently the LDS Q12. However, individuals? It is impossible to corrupt an entire movement by corrupting one individual at a time. You would need to corrupt every single individual, and that doesn’t even consider more who continue to pop up, unaffected by the next person’s corruption. Thus, no man need say know ye the Lord, refers to an individual conversion and an individual, personal, one-on-one relationship with Christ. That is the only way for Zion to ever exist, and that requires personal conversations, preferably in person, if not in person then on the phone, and online. Although the digital tools we must use are sharp and can cut and injure, the Lord commanded the assignment, therefore He has provided a way to accomplish it.

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      The “epitaph” everyone has referred to doesn’t say what you folks have claimed that it says, which to sum it up is “group think is the best.” I too prefer harmony than to be followed, but peace cannot be won at the cost of truth. And it is not truth that holds the majority together, it is opinion polling, rallying, politicking, promoting, and voting. The reasons each support the majority vary drastically, from I don’t care so I’ll go with the majority, to I’ve signed my name to all of them, to God gave Shalyce the answer, to it doesn’t matter because I’m never going to look at it again, to this is not a big deal so let’s be done with it so we can do bigger and better projects, …and everything in between. I don’t believe that people set out with the desire to do evil. However, when an assignment is given, and they see no other way out, people will cut-corners, steal, cheat, justify, rationalize, even combine secretly, …rather than wait upon the Lord. We cannot be that. Harmony is my desire, but not at the cost of truth. I will work for harmony as best as I can, stopping short of challenging another to control their actions, …and then when we cannot go any further, I will wait upon the Lord.

      You have your agency, but you do not have my agency. You may PRIORITIZE setting aside your conviction to subordinate your will and precept to your neighbor. I don’t see how that is any different than trusting in the arm of flesh, or making flesh your arm. I gotta go with my direct connection to heaven alone, and I also must trust that you’ll do the same. But, when I’m being advised to go with the crowd, to submit to my neighbor, or harmonize with “group think,” …because I desire to belong to Zion, I walk away from that mentality, desiring not to be corrupted by the idea.

      Rob Adolpho

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    14. OK Rob, “my brother” per your request I will not pity you, although I never have, I’ll make sure I don’t start. I will however be merciful, patient and not accuse you or judge your heart!
      As difficult as it may be, when trying to have success with others we need to keep in mind “perception is a form of reality” even if others perception isn’t what you believe it should be. Now we both know the only “reality” that really matters is how the Lord views us, because He knows our hearts, our past, present and future.
      I truly wish you the best in all you seek from the Lord. And as I said before, in the end all that really matters is if Christ will vouch for you and me.
      Your brother in Christ

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    15. Thanks John Dutson,

      Rob

      PS: Where are you located? Anywhere near Utah County, or Alberta Canada?

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  15. I have approached the Lord with the question of whether or not to place the Lot’s document in my scriptures. I was comfortable that I had His approval. I believe that Mutual Agreement was had by those who would be defined by “His people” and the decision was in favor of the Lot’s document. I have persuaded myself blue in the face with those who disagree who want to be included but insist on having it their way or the highway. And that is cool.

    I would have agreed to any document the majority of you wonderful people had selected. I trusted you to have good judgment. I’m not trusting anyone but Jesus with my Salvation, but I trust you guys to collectively make a good decision for creating a Guide and Standard, after all you have been at this a while. I haven’t been able to be in a Fellowship, so I don’t consider myself knowledgeable or an expert in the process, but I felt love and kindness as we worked together on the Lot’s document, and I felt peace and love as the Lot’s folks guided us through the process of finishing it up. I want to work in the Spirit of unity whether I get my way or not, it does not matter in the least to me. I apologize to anyone whom I have hurt or angered due to my direct way of communicating. I call it like I see it and I am not much of a politician.

    I will fast on the 14th because we need be unified in whatever we do. I support those who are working for each other. And I love you whether I have spent any time or had any conversation with you at all. I even love those who disagree, even though they may not believe it. It’s just a bit frustrating. I think it has been frustrating for most all of us. Thanks for continuing to push ahead! (Smile emoji) (Wink emoji)
    Love, Lisa
    I choose not to dispute, and I apologize and repent for any disputing I have done up to this point. (White flag emoji)

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  16. Brother, I have embraced and reached out to you time and time again in love and understanding. Maybe you forget that I have agreed with you and asked to labor with you. I am not with the "majority"... I simply just be and try to do. I support all efforts and have written my name on all proposals.

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  17. Eva,

    You are making an accusation out of my response, when there was none. You stated that you never heard booing, …you never heard anyone saying shut up, …you never heard anyone call me evil. You said you were intently listening, and none of what I expressed as what happened really happened, according to your memory of the circumstances. And then you asked if my experience was true? Then you concluded with, if it was actually true, then you are ashamed and apologize.

    How can you apologize for something you had no involvement in doing? If you are trying to apologize for what others have done, but have professed that none of what I said happened actually happened, then what are you apologizing for? I mean, I get that you mean well, and appear to be harmless, but you’re sending mixed messages when you try to discredit my experience as not happening, because you didn’t experience it as I did, …and then you apologize for something that you claim never happened. That’s the mixed message I responded to. I only said that you may not have experienced what I did, as you sit with the “majority.” This was a way to allow you to have experienced what you said you experienced, without trying to discredit that I experienced what I experienced. That way you aren’t a liar, …but neither am I.

    I have never said anything about you not reaching out to me in love and understanding. That’s a red herring, an argument no one made, but you. I did not forget that you asked to labor with me, another red herring, as no one questioned your expressed willingness to labor. You have claimed that you are not with the majority, but you also claimed that you have written your name on all proposals, and that is contradictory. If you have written your name on all proposals, that also includes the majority proposal, so you are with the majority. You were certainly not with me in opposing the vote, …and those who stood with me can vouch for the response from the crowd, not only during the meeting, but after the meeting as well.

    I honestly don’t know why you have chosen to take any offense. I have no objection to you choosing to float with everyone, yet no one. You write as if I somehow am being “froward.” As I am totally new to the word, I’ll own it, but it surely was not intended, …and I’m not going to feign an apology as I have no clue how it applies, what I am to repent for, and how it is that changing (repenting) how I responded would help. If you were looking for something to be offended about, I’m an easy target.

    No hard feelings,

    Rob Adolpho

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  18. The Lord, regarding our inability to complete the assignment: "you hinder and delay", "this could have been accomplished long ago".

    Matthew 6:7 "for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

    Are we really "sanctified" by continued, endless discussion?

    Christ "condescended" to provide ALL of the teachings through His servant. (Read Denver's July 8, 2017 post AND his last post). Denver clearly stated that ALL of the content from the 10 Lectures was from Jesus Christ.

    How can a wonderful compilation of important teachings which help any people to know of His work now underway and to keep pure the ordinances and the purpose of tithing - NOT be "light" and truth worthy of sharing with ANYONE in the world?

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    1. Anonymous,

      Feel free to disagree! It doesn’t impress upon me to do as you’re doing. I trust that God is with you in your efforts. Yet, I too depend solely upon Him. And like I’ve stated before, what we are required to accomplish in mutual agreement, the Lord will get, even if with a few. He will be the one who approves. All we can do is be connected to him, and trust him.

      If you wanna support, sustain, vote, insert, and add your preferred document, without my mutual agreement, without Jared Livesay’s mutual agreement, without the mutual agreement of the minority, ...by all means sista feel free. That is certainly your prorogative. The difficult part is not choosing what words represent you. The difficulty is doing as you say. Despite how we choose, we will be required to prove the words, by the fruits we produce. So while you might be with the winning majority, you are to produce fruits with the winning majority.

      For me, I’ll wait and work with those who will not only say, but do as they say. In my most recent engagement with Jared Livesey, I would prefer his company over lukewarm any day. Perhaps I’m a prickly pear, but I hear even prickly pears have sweet nectar.

      Rob Adolpho

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    2. Hi Rob,

      I haven’t personally met you yet. I hope to one day. I would like to focus on the end of our proposal. We are asking all of our covenant brothers and sisters to join in our effort to know our Lord’s will. We hope all will approach him in meekness and if correction needs to be made, it is our desire he will make that known to us. We’ve been following the process and at some points directly participating since the beginning which isn’t saying anything more than our desire, like you and many many others is to fulfill the Lords commandment. In our hearts we believe the revelation that came through Shalyce came from our Lord and that is why we choose to act in faith by adding it to our scriptures and ask the Lord if he accepts it. However, we feel strongly that if ALL are united in prayer and fasting together that day (whether you agree, disagree, choose not to dispute or choose to dispute the inclusion of the lots document) that the Lord will tell us His part. He will not upbraid us. In our current situation we just seem to keep going round and round. We feel it’s time to, as a group, go to Him. We need his Light in this thing. But if correction needs to be made, we would make it in a second. If we are wrong and He didn’t accept the Lots document, we would admit our error and chalk it up to a lesson in discernment. We need your prayer of Faith even if it’s just that we can see the error in our way. I don’t know how it will all come about, but believe He will respond to us. My heart reflects back to these words in the answer and covenant:
      “Be of one heart, and regard one another with charity. Measure your words before giving
      voice to them, and consider the hearts of others. Although a man may err in understanding
      concerning many things, yet he can view his brother with charity, and come unto me and
      through me he can with patience overcome the world. I can bring him to understanding and
      knowledge. Therefore if you regard one another with charity then your brother’s error in
      understanding will not divide you. I lead to all truth. I will lead all who come to me to the
      truth of all things. The fullness is to receive the truth of all things, and this too from me, in
      power, by my word and in very deed. For I will come to you if you will come unto me.
      Study to learn how to respect your brothers and sisters and to come together by precept,
      reason and persuasion rather than sharply disputing and wrongly condemning each other,
      causing anger. Take care how you invoke my name. Mankind has been controlled by the
      adversary through anger and jealously which has led to bloodshed and the misery of many
      souls. Even strong disagreements should not provoke anger nor to invoke my name in vain
      as if I had part in your every dispute. Pray together in humility and together meekly present
      your dispute to me, and if you are contrite before me I will tell you my part.”
      We are trying to apply this standard in our own conduct towards even those whom we strongly disagree. We are praying for charity from others if and when we are the ones in error. Please add your prayer and fasting with us on April 14 that we may know His will. I really believe no matter what our differences of opinion, He will judge our hearts and know that we are all desiring the same thing, fulfilling His commandment.

      Teryn

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    3. 1 of 3

      Teryn,

      I recall that Sam Vaughn and Ewin Wilde both recommended the same fasting and prayer, weeks before the conference. The difference between what they recommended and your recommendation is, they requested a clean slate, whereas you recommend keeping the majority document and merely editing it to cut and paste.

      Prior to the Arizona conference, the majority Lots proposal was up in the opinion polls, so those who supported that document weren’t interested in fasting and prayer for unity, based upon putting documents aside. However, after the conference, where a vote was attempted, but unable to be finalized (although we all know who won the majority), now you are suggesting a fasting and prayer. But, not without strings attached to the successful outcome of what? The majority Lots document? Shalyce called me in November 2017, asking me to pray for their success, after I expressed my disapproval of the method and the document. I asked her how that was possible for me to pray for the success of something I am in opposition to? I ask you the same, how is that possible? I support the efforts of Sam Vaughn and Edwin Wilde, seeking for a clean slate. But, I cannot pray a lie, by sincerely asking God for another edit to the Lots document. If you sincerely believe that Shalyce’s answer was God’s answer to you, then all you intend to do is to get me to believe the same.

      I find it futile to get you to believe like I do. Like Jared Livesay said, that’s the job of the Holy Ghost to get you to correct belief, and I agree. Using a united fast and prayer as a tool to support an argument is a bad idea. Controlling another to do what is right was what Satan promoted. I would never use compulsion on a homosexual to stop doing what they are doing, even though I know that it is wrong. All anyone can do is to speak the truth, and allow the Holy Ghost to enlighten them to choose a better way of life, away from homosexuality. However, how many parents of homosexuals have fasted and prayed for their child to stop, and get straight? I think your proposal is far more than the scenario I just painted, but little difference in concept. If you sincerely believe that Shalyce’s answer is from God, then the Holy Ghost should be able to convey that to my heart independently. No one need say to me, know ye that this is God’s voice. I intend to be judged by my openness, and willingness, to do precisely as the voice of God commands, and in order to do that I am responsible for knowing His voice. Your effort to recommend a fast and prayer, in unity, for hearts to soften, …expecting others to see as you do is futile, or incapable of producing a useful result, or pointless.

      You may not be aware of this, but Jeff Savage went through the same process earlier. I say this to show that what you are recommending is repeating the same action, expecting a different result. Jeff had multiple conventions, produced a pretense that all was on the table, when all we were allowed to do was edit his document, and very little at that. A vote was forced upon the movement, and when the vote was not acceptable, a request was made that we all fast and pray for it’s success. A creative prayer-watch was scheduled for every hour of the day for a distinguished, symbolic period of time. The efforts were framed in language of love, but a clean slate was not permitted. The same pattern exists in the proposal you are suggesting.

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    4. JK 2 of 2

      If unifying our hearts was the only objective, as your proposal suggests, and not continuing to promote more Jeff Savage, more August 5th, more Lots Majority, or more something else with votes and compulsion, …then your suggestion would be what Sam Vaughn and Edwin Wilde suggested. I can safely say that I agree with their (Sam & Edwin’s) proposal. But yours is a loaded proposal.

      The same pattern you are recommending, to propose a harmless fast and prayer, was used to get us sucked into being perceived as supporting the lots program. I was involved in the meeting at Steve Van Leer’s home. We found peace agreeing that we all mutually agreed to the A&C. Suggestions were made to cast lots to move forward. I disagreed to choosing lots as opposed to hearing the voice of the Lord, but I was satisfied to allow the others to do as they pleased. Days later, my name was attached as supporting the lots program. I had been sucked into a program that I was clear to all in the meeting that I was not in support of. I had to verbally separate myself from that effort, having been sucked into being associated with the lots simply for attending the meeting. I tell you this, not to bring up the past, but to point to the potential relationship of that event with your loaded proposal. Because of your proposal, fasting and praying for unity has been tainted with supporting the lots majority. If we start right, it’s far easier to stay right, …and I think that your proposal isn’t starting right, so it will be difficult to correct it later (something I have learned through sad experience).

      I am not against fasting and praying. I know that fasting makes humility stronger and stronger, and produces more and more firmness in faith (according to scripture). However, I am against proposals to fast and pray to uphold something I disagree with, producing stronger and stronger pride, and not humility, …and more and more firmness in unbelief, rather than firmness in faith based upon correct beleif.

      Sam Vaughn and Edwin Wilde’s proposal to unite in a fast & prayer, based upon a clean slate, would express a sincere desire for the unity of our hearts, as they neither promote, market, or seek the strengthening of a winning document.

      I realize that my response probably does not sound good to you, and probably seems hurtful, aggressive, and unkind. Do not permit yourself to believe it, as it is not intended that way. I think that your perspective is well intended. I do not think you intend to promote. It’s difficult to express openness to a subject when your view is not an opened view, having already established that the Lots majority is God’s chosen document for you.

      Take it as you will,

      Rob Adolpho

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    5. Hi Rob,
      I think you misunderstand my and my husband’s intent. We don’t believe we all have to agree on or even accept the lots document. We don’t believe anyone should feel any compulsion in any way. Perhaps re read the original post? We personally believe in supporting the lots document, just as you personally believe in not supporting it. I do not judge your heart in any way. Our proposal is not intended to be “loaded”. We are trying to show faith by acting on what we believe God has said and we invite anyone else who also feels the same way to do the same. However, if you or anyone that opposes our belief about this document, unite with us in prayer, even if it’s just that you offer up the desires of your heart which seems to be that we all completely discard every document that’s gone on before and continue to reason together for a new/clean slate document, then perhaps my heart or anyone that agrees with me will be the ones that are softened and that’s what our Lord will tell us through revelation to the body. I think keeping an open mind to what He may say is good for all of us. In my mind, the difference between our proposal and the one earlier, is that there is action behind it on including a document and presenting that to the Lord to see if it fulfills his requirement as we believe it does. This has not been done yet. I guess I think, “what does that hurt?” If we do this and he tells us NO, this does not fulfill my commandment, but thanks for asking as a group and now I’ve got more light to divulge concerning this matter or even other matters... I would be so happy to receive it. I would discard the lots document if he tells us we are in error. Why? Because my desire, as I believe yours is as well, is to fulfill His commandment. I don’t have a stake in which document will fulfill it, I just think it’s time to act on what I believe and invite others to do the same. But there is absolutely room in my heart to accept my error... this path is hard...sacrifices are great, and at this point I just want to do what the Lord is asking. That’s it. Again, you don’t have to pray with us. I respect your choice, I just wanted to reiterate that all are invited to do so, whether you agree or don’t agree, whether you choose to dispute or not to dispute. There are no expectations from us. Just sincere desire to fulfill this commandment. I think we all have a different definition in our heads of what he means by mutual agreement. I’ll leave it there and don’t feel to debate it any further. I just hoped to clarify our intent if at all possible.

      Teryn

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    6. Teryn,

      I got that that was your idea the first time. All you want is a united fast, right? That's what Sam and Edwin proposed, but when they proposed it, unlike you, their proposal wasn't laced with the explanation of why they chose a specific document. It's kinda hard to separate the weaving of your reasoning from the proposal, as it removes the emphasis from a simple "united fast for answers." I read you correctly, but what you add is what makes what you write confusing.

      You ask, "What does it hurt if we do this and he tells us NO, this does not fulfill my commandment, but thanks for asking as a group and now I've got more light to divulge concerning this matter or even other matters?" The Lord already knows what's in our heart. And if we want the Lots Majority, the Lord will not stand in our way. He will allow not only the document, but the precedent set through compulsory vote, a democratic modus operandi, and a "group think." He will not stand in our way, but give us more of what we want, ...not knowing that what we want is precisely the problem. If our hearts were right, points directly at our desires being the issue.

      Regarding a debate, you have an opposing view, put forth in a public forum, yet you claim to feel not to debate it further, after debating? I don't quite understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you want your words to be the last word regarding this? I got no issue with your fast, and do not wish to debate further. However, you engaged me, remember. I am simply responding to you. Did you just want me not to respond to you any further?

      Rob Adolpho

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  19. I support this proposal. I think being one is the destination we seek, but I think it is not done overnight or in one step. It has been said, that before we can be of one mind we must be of one heart. We must tie our hearts together first in love before we reach a point of intellectual agreement. I think we may have all skipped this step. I think that this assignment was given us by the Lord to help us become of one heart. Our Lord can work with us if love and acceptance abound, regardless of the words contained in the guiding principles. Jeremy and Genevieve

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  20. It would seem that if the Lord has said that he will tell us His part - what if we all trusted in the Lord, Mutually Agree (by withdrawing dispute), and then submit the Lot Guide and Standard to the Lord to see whether or not he accepts or rejects it. If those who have been disputing this document as not acceptable are correct, then we should expect the Lord to reject the document, rebuke us and tell us to go back to the drawing board and work together until we get it right. What if the Lord is pleased with us compiling his words and teachings to the world as to how to begin Christian fellowships as were anciently practiced? Of course, the question regarding this fast and prayer proposal is - who is appointed to receive the revelation on behalf of all of the people? Are we going to ask Denver to reveal the Lord's part in this dispute?

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    1. Anonymous,

      The Lord didn't stop the early saints from D&C 20, all the hierarchical designs, etc. Why would he stop us, reject what our hearts desire, or correct us when we don't want to be corrected? That's not the Lord's method of operation.

      "What if..." is a common theme for those who press to move ahead with the Lots majority. But it's not a good foundation to build upon, because whatever you say, can be reversed, and provides no rock to build upon, only sand. What if the Lord did accept it? What if He didn't? What if this was only a practice to simply agree? What if it isn't? What if we present the document and the Lord rejects it, correcting us? What if he accepts it, knowing it is in our hearts to lord over others, and it will lead to overall apostasy? What if this, what if that, what if up, what if down? None of "what if" offers any certainty. Why be so certain, when everything about you is so uncertain?

      Denver being removed, rests the responsibility on each individual who are defined as "My People" to receive revelation themselves, removing any necessity for a vote. You and I are appointed to receive the revelation. And no one is to receive revelation on behalf of all the people. Just because Denver presented truth, he never received revelation on behalf of any of us. His alignment with the truth simply made him trusted. Thus, we are all required to align with truth, so no man need say to us, because we already know for ourselves.

      That is the work continually going missed, undone, and short-cut.

      Rob Adolpho

      Rob Adolpho

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    2. I think it’s however God wants to answer. Which is not all the comforting because we can’t predict it. But my hope and prayer is that he will make himself known to us and we can receive it.

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    3. Teryn,

      Huh? Were you talking to me, or anonymous? Not sure what you mean by "I think it's however God wants to answer."

      Rob Adolpho

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    4. Rob, I think you and I were responding to anonymous at the same time, I didn’t see your comment until right now. So I was responding to anonymous here. Sorry about the no more debate comment on our other thread. I perhaps used the wrong word. I only meant that I didn’t think it worth continueing to go back and forth on. I felt I had said what I needed and it seemed you had as well and I was just ready to move on. You’re free to continue to engage how you want. I was just trying to express that I was done. I don’t really like online communication and regret getting involved. I think so much is lost in translation when dealing only with online forums.

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    5. Oh, ...ok, I totally get that. We can move on, having understood the perspective of both views. Online communication is difficult, but for some it's the only way to engage. Lots get lost in translation, like you said, so we gotta take everything with a grain of salt, ...salt that has not lost it's savor:)

      Rob Adolpho

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  21. Please forgive my weakness in words. I meant no harm or accusation. I was simply apologizing for hurt received and reminding that I desire to labor with you all. But I confess that I lack the capacity, intelligence and knowledge to complete this task. Therefore I return to wait on the Lord to seek His forgiveness and to know His part. What would HE have us do?

    I will not contribute by adding my weakness here again. It was not in my heart to do so.

    I'm sorry for confusion.

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    1. Eva, I totally understood what you meant with your first response to Rob. It would be like me to say the same thing. Please be okay with yourself, what you meant, and how you said it. :) And don't you dare stop contributing here. We are all needed, even a crazy, fiery, passionate gal like me. Rob's a warrior, and he speaks as a warrior. We don't want him to stop contributing either. :) *hugs*

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  22. This morning I gained some understanding about *me* and what I need regarding "the freedom to disagree." I share this with you all so you will 1) know I support anyone who feels a desire to fast and pray this weekend about the stated purpose outlined in the op above, and 2) know what my husband and I will be seeking ourselves.

    We have not added any statement to our scriptures. There is still much we are struggling to understand about all that has happened and what we are to accomplish. Sorry, I tend to be as slow as a snail, maybe because I overthink things or just lack sufficient light. I am sincere in trying, however. My husband and I need more light from Christ, we don't know which way to go from this point, other than the doctrine of Christ and law of Christ are a foundation.

    I recalled this morning what Denver noted about the answer he was given concerning how Christ defines "mutual agreement." We all know the definition so I won't repeat it here. But Denver stated that with the definition came understanding about Christ's life and how He approached interacting with people, especially those who disagreed with Him. He didn't dispute everyone, though He could have disputed all day every day. Did I rephrase that correctly?

    Well, I realized this morning that whatever Denver understood from the answer *he* was given has not readily transferred to me, apparently. I equate it to Nephi's experience:

    "And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father concerning the things which he saw and heard in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God--and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come--I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see and hear and know of these things by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men, for he is the same yesterday, today, and forever." NC 1 Nephi 3:5, p. 304

    One missing key for *me* is that I still lack understanding--the understanding Denver was given because he asked Christ and received an answer. I still just feel perplexed.

    So, for my husband and myself this will be our desired focus this weekend as we fast and pray, seeking to know His part and to receive greater light and understanding concerning this whole task.

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    1. PS--I have been listening to the YT video my friend Lisa posted recently on the last post's thread and have been astonished at what I am hearing. "Theosis & Divination -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOnHDQgIoCU&t=3208s

      Margaret Barker begins by detailing how much the Deuteronomists changed the Old Covenants. One important truth they removed was that we can see God face-to-face and talk with Him.

      I have begun to understand why Christians are in the state we are in--of blindness, deafness, unbelief, hardness of heart, etc. We have lost light from God's word. The compass used by most Christians has lost calibration, so even one degree off leads into mists of darkness and to strange roads. As a result, we truly do not know Who and What we worship.

      I can understand now something of what the Adolphos have been trying to express, how the proposals thus far still lack something that First Nation (and probably others) would see and recognize immediately it came from *their* God.

      I have been reading a book titled "He Walked the Americas." In it is account after account of Christ's interactions and teachings with those who lived on the American continents. It is my understanding these are stories First Nation tribes know; these are their legends and histories.

      What if we were could write a statement of principles that brings in the light most of Christianity has lost? Light that many tribal peoples will comprehend and recognize and be drawn toward because the source is the God their fathers knew and spoke of and taught about?

      Anyhoot, these have just been my thoughts since yesterday. Feel free to disagree, to ignore, or help sort them out. :)

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    2. Lori,

      That is correct. My wife and I have been talking about "other sheep." If the Lord told His apostles of "other sheep" and then told the Nephite people of more "other sheep," ...and I suspect he taught yet "other sheep" the same subject he did those in Jerusalem and America, then the Doctrine/Law of Christ would be a common familiarity to those who are the "other sheep" indeed.

      Both our Native American/Hawaiian cultures have been scattered because we have failed to be obedient to the commandments we were given as a people. Thus, we are only left with remnants of the truth in our cultural background. But within those remnants, the Doctrine/Law of Christ resonates, along with ascension, and a personal connection with both the heaven and the earth. So, rather than give into the mass majority, I will repent for the mistakes of my ancestors, by remaining true to every degree of the Doctrine/Law of Christ I have been given, ...even when I am portrayed as the antagonist.

      I appreciate your ability to understand. Good luck on your choices.

      Good Lookin-out! PEACE!

      Rob Adolpho

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    3. Lori,

      During this past year I have learned a great deal. In many ways, it feels like 10 years have passed by. About 6 months ago I complained about this process and wanted to be done but the good Lord had different plans. I had a friend that taught me that I should be grateful for all my experiences, even the horrible ones. I learned from my friend and the Lord that in order for me to overcome the natural man in me I must be grateful for all that has happened to me. I am grateful for all that I have gone through this past year and in many ways, wish it to continue, which may sound odd. The reason I feel this way is due to my realization of the unbelief I have and this past years’ experience has helped me overcome some of my unbelief. Being taught by the Holy Ghost and the Lord has help me overcome my unbelief. But I needed to lend myself to the process, like riding a wave.

      One of the things I have recently learned is due to Jared’s persistent message of the Doctrine and Law of Christ My experience this past year taught me that it is the Holy Ghost and the Lord who can heal my unbelief, like the BOM testifies. For this reason, I have come to understand that it is the word of the Lord that will heal all nations (3 Nephi 14). The message he gave to my ancestors was the same message he gave to the Jews and to the other sheep: Doctrine and Law of Christ, which helps a person discover who God is.

      For many years, we have had many religions come and teach us the Doctrine and Law of Christ and we believed it and accepted it until they utilized God’s ways to abuse us. One of the biggest abuses that has occurred, and still occurs to our people, is when a group of people express that they are somehow God’s chosen people and our people should hear their message because they know God and their understanding of God is better than our way. For this reason, I thought using the Doctrine and Law of Christ only, would deter my people from even listening. Then it dawned on me that it won’t be the words that will be spoken to them that will cause them to take notice but it will be by way of actions by a people. It will be the light of the people that will draw God’s people in. The only problem is that there hasn’t been a people who actually lived the Doctrine and Law of Christ on this land. There certainly have been individuals but not a people. It won’t be by way of word that my people will come to accept this message but it will be by way of how a people act. When will a people ever come to us to learn, instead of to teach?

      It will be the light or actions of this people that will entice others to want to know about the message. It will be when a people actually live the Doctrine and Law of Christ that my people will be persuaded, because it will be the Great Spirit that persuades not words of a man. The words of our Savior, Jesus Christ can and will wake my people up to what has been promised to them. The Lord became the Word because he said and did what God commanded.

      Take Care, Q

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    4. Rob and Q, yeeesss!

      I began writing out some feelings, but will leave those things for a time when we can meet in person. I will instead simply say that is right, what you have said. It tastes good to my sensibilities and makes my heart sing, as so much of what you both have been saying all along has.

      I still have some sorting out to do within myself, having a stronger tendency to be a whiny baby than being all growed up. I have much to learn, not the least of which is faithfully walking the talk of the Doctrine of Christ and His Sermons on the Mount and at Bountiful. I am a poor example in every way.

      But I trust Christ to do His work in each of us, and hope He will find me useful in bringing many souls to Him as the dispensation of the fullness of times continues to unfold. I genuinely do look forward to the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the remnant of Jacob on these lands being brought back to the knowledge and presence of the Messiah they faithfully embraced and worshipped generations ago. It will truly be glorious, and oh I wish to see Jacob "flourish in the wilderness and the Lamanites...blossom as the rose." (T&C 35:8)

      The prophecies, they are so great, why do we languish in the traditions and philosophies of men when there is so much of light and love to prepare to receive?

      Thanks, y'all.

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  23. Rob, I don't know if this is possible, or if you would agree to it. Would it be fair to all of us if you wrote an addendum, I guess that is the word, to the Lot's Document that would supply the missing portion you are looking for. You have to admit, we are different, we have different cultures and backgrounds. I have noticed you and Q value your heritage greatly. You have seen the inequities of your people as they have struggled for a place in this world. Maybe I have it wrong, I don't know. I would be happy to accommodate you, but not want to throw everything we have done away. Would that be a fair compromise to preserve unity? I don't have the right to offer anything without agreement from the others, but the thought came to me so I figured I would throw it out there. Can we have a chapter for each heritage eventually? Nothing says we can't add to it. We already have the basic essentials. So what would you say to that, just curious?
    Love, Lisa

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  24. Lisa,

    I recognize your effort to create type of peace, and value your intention. Without knowing, you have repeated the pattern from Jeff Savage, only he recommended we write an intro/preface in the beginning, while you recommend an addendum in the end. What goes misunderstood is that cutting and pasting, or writing a collage is precisely one of the problems I have with the Lots document.

    Thank you for trying to identify with our culture, and recognizing how very different it is from your own. This is a fact that we have dealt with all our lives, finding space in your culture. The house of Israel were scattered because they have abandoned the law of the King of this land, Christ. Therefore, their scattering was a result of being outside of the King's law, or in other words for being an outlaw (the true origins of the word). We are working on the process of returning to the law, and all who join with us within the law can be numbered among Israel, as an in-law, if they too accept and keep the law of the King of this land.

    As good as your heart intends to be, I don't want to be accommodated, and must stand on the Doctrine/Law of Christ, the rightful King of this land, and of all of creation. The work you prefer not throwing away makes it sound like a huge investment gone to waste, but little work has been done in the creation of the document itself. The massive amounts of time and energy was spent in the gathering of opinions, polling, rallying, and voting. The same effort of Jeff Savage was tossed out and replaced by the Lots majority, so why then can the Lots majority not be easily put to the side, to start fresh? Nothing really has been done that would be wasted, as the experiences we have aggregated has made us all the more wiser.

    I have said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't compromise. To me, compromise represents giving up truth, in exchange for opinion. If I only relied on opinion, then changing one opinion for another opinion would not be compromise, just a change of mind. However, I do not stand firm upon an opinion, ever. The only time I stand firm is when I know it is truth, and then I can never compromise, giving up truth, in exchange for opinion. The best I can do, in a deadlock, is remain still, and ask for more light, ...never sacrificing truth for peace.

    We are currently in that precise position of deadlock. So I am standing still, until I am given further light and knowledge, to move forward again. I recommend this process for all. As the Lord adds more and more light, we move more and more forward, and those who were unable to receive more light are left in the dark.

    Thanks for the gesture Lisa,

    Rob Adolpho

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  25. Just a reminder to no particular individual: “We do not wish to impose this particular proposal upon anyone” (Lots Proposal, p. 5).

    Did you mean it?

    Fawn Livesey

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    1. I'll respond to this Fawn.

      Yes of course we meant it. That is why we took the time to first ask permission of the main body of believers to move forward with the LOTS proposal before taking any action. That involved weeks of reaching out to individuals and fellowships to explain what we were trying to accomplish and why....because previous efforts to just start something without the voice of the people had resulted in major push-back. We then called for the voice of the people on the matter and 87% of the 450 people who participated gave their consent. I think many people have forgotten that we did all this first before assuming it was OK to move forward.

      With that we proceeded, as outlined in the LOTS proposal, to gather the names of those willing to serve and draw 7 by lot. These folks then collected all of the documents that had been drafted up to that point and amalgamated them into one document representative of the whole. That document was then presented back to the main body for a sustaining vote which roughly 93% of 500 people consented to. Following that, the Lotsters labored for another 40 days to personally contact as many covenant holders as they could find that did not participate in the vote to be sure they were at peace with outcome.

      Many have argued that this entire process was done in haste because it only took a week to complete. I disagree for three reasons. First, the lots proposal proceeded carefully and slowly for weeks before launching making sure that everyone was informed and notified of what would take place with the drawing of lots done publicly on video for all to view. Second, the actual work of writing the statement of principles was completed by the main body in the 8 months previous to the LOTS process; a process which had as it's aim the simple assignment to bring them all together in a unified statement of principles. Third, the fact that it only took a week for the Lotsters to come together in peace without disputation among them and present the completed document to the people was evidence to me that it was a light thing indeed and could be done if our hearts were right from the outset.

      I understand that many do not agree with either the LOTS process or the document or both, and I respect that. But what I don't respect is the unfounded and oft repeated accusation that any part of the LOTS proposal was an act of dominion, forced imposition, coercion or compulsion. Rather, it was conceived in peace with the best of intentions, went forward in peace with the overwhelming consent of the people, and completed in peace with the 7 who served willfully disbanding once their labor was finished.

      I fault no one for their opposition to the document for any reason. But to date, the LOTS process was one the most beautiful experiences I have had yet with the movement and was a perfect example to me of how a people can accomplish great things together when their hearts are right.

      Thank you Fawn for the opportunity to set the record straight.

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    2. Jim,

      I'm a little sad right now. I just spent the better part of the last two hours responding to you, only to have my post disappear when I hit 'Publish.' That's what I get for being a fool and not preparing for that possibility.

      The gist is this: God commanded that we find mutual agreement. We have not as yet done so; therefore, we have not as yet met the requirement of the Lord, which in the end is the thing that matters if "the path to Zion is to be found ONLY by following God’s immediate commands to us" (Boise Conf. Sunday's Opening Remarks, emphasis added). That means we don't get there by breaking His commandments. Of course we don't.

      God did not ask that the "voice of the people" or "the main body" have power over others in ANY aspect of the assignment or in ANY degree of decision-making. I'm sorry there are so many people who do not believe Christ when He says, "“...with God, whatever things I speak are possible” (Matthew 9:23), but I am a believer. I am weak, but I believe He is strong and will help us accomplish all He asks of us.

      And here is what He is asking: "I require a
      statement of principles to be adopted by the mutual agreement of my people..." (A&C p. 8),and here is why it matters: "...for if you cannot do so you will be unable to accomplish other works that I will require at your hands" (A&C p. 8).

      At the end of the day, I cannot sign my name to something that is false for me such as statements like "we agreed to the methodology" (Revised Lots doc. p. 1)and other statements. That would make me a liar.

      Please understand, I am not saying that anyone who DID agree to the content and methodology of the Lots document is a liar. If you agree, you agree, and you will, I believe, be bound by heaven to what you’ve agreed to. That doesn’t mean we’ve met the Lord’s requirement.

      A lot of people seem to be at peace with the idea that they can add whatever they have agreed to to their scriptures. Of course they can, but no percentage of some subset of the much greater number of people who have accepted this covenant can be claimed to have mutual agreement unless that percentage is (1) not just a subset and (2) is 100%.

      Anyway, the first version had much more grace and much greater Spirit, even testimony, but c'est la vie. Maybe God did not will me to share that part.

      God bless all who seek the face of the Lord. Here is a lovely scripture with which to close:

      (Old Covenants) Genesis 5:22:
      “And this is my everlasting covenant that I establish with you: that when your posterity shall embrace the truth and look upward, then shall Zion look downward, and all the heavens shall shake with gladness, and the earth shall tremble with joy."

      Hallelujah!

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    3. Jim,

      You wrote three reasons why the Lots document wasn't written in haste, but the only thing you addressed about the Lots document was the eight days, reportedly seven, but eight days it took for them to write it. The first two points had nothing to do with the Lots document. How they were called had nothing to do with the Lots document. The months of preparation had nothing to do with the Lots document either, as you are claiming all the previous efforts to write a document, which were all done in haste as well. You are proving the hastiness of the document, not clarifying that there was no haste.

      Agape?

      Rob Adolpho

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    4. Rob if you read my comments again, I explain how the PROCESS was not done in haste and then I provided three reasons why I don't feel that was the case. All three reasons pertain to the PROCESS and not the document itself, which I have taken no issue with regarding those like yourself who do not approve of it.

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    5. Jim,

      The process is the marketing, the sales, the rallying, the politicking, the voting. That's where you invested the time, not in the document. The document was in absolute haste. It has been that way from the beginning, and continues to be in the LOTs. What you wrote was about the LOTS not being hasty, but all you refer to is the process to make it into the scriptures. The document is what I was referring to.

      Go on, and do your thang. Hele on, and continue to go in peace, but don't act as if you take no issue with me, while you use a majority to enforce your judgement. Those who want this as their document should paste it in their books, and let the rest of us continue to work in peace.

      Rob

      I read it just fine JIM!

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    6. Dani:

      "Anyway, the first version had much more grace and much greater Spirit, even testimony, but c'est la vie."

      Are you saying that you had a testimony that the Guide and Standard proposal offered by Jeff Savage was inspired of God?

      Then why haven't you supported that proposal instead of supporting Jared's and offering one of your own?

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    7. She's saying she spent a lot of time composing a response to Jim that disappeared when she hit the "post" button that had much more grace and much greater Spirit, even testimony, than the replacement comment to which you are responding, Anonymous.

      JL

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  26. To Rob,
    The Lord told me last night you would not accept my attempt to bridge the gap, to connect you, to help you to become one with the body. This isn't about the G&S. It is about coming together. We, if things go as I hope, will be gathered together to live among each other, relying on God and each other for food, water, shelter, protection, and everything else we normally need, spiritually, emotionally, and physically. Our kids will marry each other's kids. There cannot be any contention, nor disputations, nor jarrings. We will have to contribute everything we own to each other, if there is a need. The upside is we will have a Temple where we can go to experience God's real presence, not just pretend as we have been used to doing in the LDS church.

    I think we have been seeing how easy it is to dispute. We need to be people who can get along each other. One person cannot draw a line in the sand and tell people they won't move beyond it. I was trying to move toward you. You will not try to move toward me, nor will Jared. In my view, you are both listening to the wrong God, as Denver has written so keenly about in his last post. He said, how can two people who have two such varying views about God expect to be gathered? Now there are some awesome people associated with this group. Their hearts break at the thought of losing even one of us. They would stand by you, just so you would not be left behind. Well I had to lose the person I loved most in this world at the time, because she could not find the right God. I could have chosen to stay with her in her errors, my life would have been happier, but then I wouldn't be here. Someone has to build the Temple, someone has to achieve the prophesied ways in the scriptures to help the Lord have some fruit in the vineyard when all this is said and done. Time is up. I have given up my life, whoever goes up to the mountain will have to do the same. If you can't give up a few words or even your own heritage, you will never find the true and living God, nor will you make it up the mountain. We can try to carry you, but (like Cain you love Satan more than you love God. That is what the Lord told me when I prayed about this last night.) We all have a choice to make. I am not disputing or contending. I am simply telling the truth, if you can discern it. I pray God will provide answers in our fasting that will allow us to move forward to help Him accomplish His work. I still love you Rob and Jared. I love you enough to tell you the truth. God be with us! Love, Lisa

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    1. Lisa,

      I have to be honest. This kind of thing is a huge turn off to me. It is comments like this that make me want to have nothing to do with this movement.

      I'm sure your heart was in the right place, but I think when you go back and read that in the future you'll be embarrassed.

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    2. No Julius, I am used to putting myself in these situations to try and do what the Lord is asking me to do. I honestly followed what I was prompted to do, however the outcome. It’s a proving process. I am sorry you disapproved. There was honestly no guile or contention on my part. We can’t have unity among our group, there is just too much division. I guess proving is a way of dividing. Truth is a double edged sword. I cuts both ways. Thanks, Lisa

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  27. Lisa,

    Be careful how you judge, because how you judge is how you'll be judged. Meaning, if you want a majority go-along-with-it judgement, then you will be judged with those who seek a majority go-along-with-it judgement. The LDS are all being judged by their majority go-along-with-it judgement, ...and I wouldn't want that judgement.

    I'm satisfied that you choose to judge me as you have, exercising your agency to separate. If we were to live together and rely on each other for food, shelter, clothing, ...given the comments about all the work you've done on this, ...I would be better off, as I have never seen any of your work except to comment on just do what I tell you to do. I would be enslaved to provide you food, shelter, and clothing, ...as you tell me more of what I should do. Why would I ever want my children to marry yours. Your children would only tell my children what they should do, and have you as a mother-in-law manipulating their relationships, rather than allowing them the freedom to choose.

    I really don't like you Lisa, and if you don't like me, at least we mutually agree on something. I don't think it necessary for us to like one another. But I do think that if this is going to work out, you must contain yourself to govern only you, and leave me to myself to govern me. I think that's fair.

    Your comments are only a reflection of you. How you react, claiming me similar to Cain, loving Satan more than God, is a judgement you can freely make about me and my character. You are free to make it. I take no offense. If you wish to have nothing to do with me, you may forge ahead without me, I will not stop you. If time is up for you, add your principles to your book, unite with those who agree with you, and produce your fruits. I do not want any part of that.

    If you change your mind, that's just fine too.

    Aloha Oe!
    Rob Adolpho

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  28. Lisa, this is MY OPINION - not going to pretend to pass it off as "truth" - but your passive-aggressive crap where you ACCUSE Rob or Jared or anyone else that they "love Satan more than they love God" is just that...crap! It's an accusation, pure and simple, yet you try and pass it off as truth because you "prayed about it".

    Obviously, you think you have all the answers. You've got your document. You don't want to work on this any more - you pretend you want to - but since you have all the answers and have supposedly fulfilled the Lord's assignment - go for it. Please don't ever accuse any of us who want to continue working on this assignment as not allowing you to "depart in peace". You've got it. Go for it. Good luck with that!

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  29. The words I gave you were revelation given from the Lord and from a servant of God, Denver. I am not disputing. I choose not too. Judge me as you will. I still love you! The truth is always the truth. Love, Lisa

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    1. Lisa,

      At least you're honest. Props for that. You are probably saying to me what many only want to say, or they say anonymously, so that they don't look bad. At least I know where you stand with me, and I with you.

      There's a fear of people to converse and be honest. I am not afraid of your opinion of me, despite how ugly you think I look. You will never have to wake up next to me, nor I you. But if my wife thought the way you think, that would concern me. Lucky for me, she enjoys waking up next to me (TMI).

      Too bad I don't have a credit card for all the guilt trips I've been forced to take, I'm sure the air miles would accumulate fast in this forum.

      Lisa, we're good, so no worries mate,

      Rob Adolpho

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  30. Wait...what? The revelation received about Rob loving Satan more than God is from Denver? Huh? Then you try and negate it all by saying "I love you"...come on. This is what is meant by being passive-aggressive.

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    1. I read Lisa's reference to Denver as only a reference to his blogpost. The one about Every Man's God. I didn't read it as though Denver and Lisa had a private conversation in which Denver was an additional source of the comments about Rob and Jared. That, to me, doesn't appear to be what she was implying.

      However I'm not involved in that conversation so will let them sort it out/clarify.

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  31. Geez guys! I was in a hurry this morning so I didn’t have a chance to explain very well. No, the part about Rob and Cain came from a revelation from the Lord to me. Denver had a point in his post about believing in 2 God’s from opposite ends of the spectrum, I believe it to be related. If one is the true God, then the other must not be. I am explaining it poorly. Read it, I hate cutting and pasting. Denver sometimes weighs in on things through his posts. He also said just because someone speaks something that produces a negative reaction, doesn’t mean it is not true or good fruit.

    I promise you that none of what I wrote was written with any guile at all. I don’t have any guile in me. Someone labeled it passive aggressive. Well the passive part comes from not having guile. The aggressive part is your own reaction to what I said. I didn’t say it with any aggression or guile at all. I said I loved you Rob enough to tell him the truth.

    Here is the logic. There is Christ on one side with truth, light, spirit and on the other side there is Anti-Christ with error, darkness and no spirit or evil spirit. It’s our job to find the true Christ, listen to Him and to receive truth, and light. Christ is hard to find. Sometimes it takes going down the wrong road a bit then receiving a prompting or recognizing the Spirit departing to figure out. It is a process we must all learn. But the test is truth. Can we receive a true prophet as opposed to fake ones? Can we discern the condition of the Spirit when we react negatively to others? Can we discern the actions of others when they are always in opposition? I have had the Spirit strongly throughout the revelation and posting. The only time my spirit was impacted was when I read your harsh comments. I felt oppression, not unlike many have felt in conversations with you over the past months. That is the truth as well. Hard to take maybe, but true.
    Continued below— from Lisa - sometimes I use two different devices, so one comes up Anonymous, one comes up Your Friend - Sorry

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  32. I went to the Lord last night. I was praying that we could all come to a unity in this thing we are about. I was hoping you (Rob) would take the olive branch and work together with the bulk of the group. I honestly thought you would. The request seemed fair and equitable. However, in my prayer the Lord said to me that you would not agree because you were listening to the wrong God, like what Denver wrote about. The Lord then gave me impressions of Adam , Eve and Cain, how Cain started listening to the wrong God. He probably did it because of his natural man tendencies. That’s why we need to repent of them an purge them out. Scripture says Cain loved Satan more than God. Well when you listen to Satan over God, I think you probably love Satan more. It just means you are listening to the natural man. Maybe that part of the post sounded bad, but anyone who is not listening to God is listening to Satan. It is easy to do. I’m sure he justified his actions by saying everyone else was wrong. He may have engaged people along the way and tried to convince them he was right. He may not have even known he was on the wrong path. And then the real God showed up. And he was too prideful to admit he was wrong and didn’t repent. And we know what happened then. Incidentally, I wasn’t calling you (Rob) a murderer.

    The Lord is proving us with truth. Can we discern it, even if it conflicts with our own desires? I am nobody’s boss. I don’t want to be. I am not over anyone. I am however a person that hears from God. That is sometimes a double edged sword. The message is sometimes not popular. Look at what happened to those that heard from the Lord in ancient times. I have also had revelation about the times we are in, and that Denver is the Servant David. You don’t have to believe me. You don’t have to heed anything I say. You can discern it and if you believe it to be true then good, if you don’t then good.

    We will be divided by our ability to discern truth. I’m just trying to be a good servant. If no one calls you (Rob) on your error, then how will you know you have an issue? The Lord told me because he knows how much I wanted it to work out. I told you because I felt led too. My responsibility is over. And true love is when someone will put themselves out, and endure not nice comments for each other. Do you think I wanted to read your response. I has messed up my whole day. It was hard to read, but I don’t think you meant it and I forgive you. Even if you did mean it, I forgive you. We are all learning here. I still love you, I just want us all to be together, that is all I have wanted from the beginning. I am sorry if sharing my revelation hurt you in any way. I felt I had to deliver it. It was not from me. I wouldn’t have come up with that.
    God Bless! Love, Lisa

    ReplyDelete
  33. Just to be clear. Denver and I have not had any conversations. He had a post recently that I believe relates to what has been going on in our conversations. Sometimes he tries to help us in our failings by giving us little clues. I believed my revelation was in line with what he had written about. That is all. Thank, Lisa

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Lisa, you okay? Sometimes...it helps to not take all this too seriously? Or at least not forget how to laugh at ourselves? Things feel pretty intense right now. Be okay, ok? Lori

      Delete
    2. Thanks Lori! I appreciate your caring for me. I can’t take too much of the oppression, it’s damaging to my spirt and heart. It is a proving process and Denver has given us clues in his latest post. The Lord will gather who he will gather. Purity is so important. I will find myself repenting and humbling myself to hopefully be invited to be gathered. Hope to see you there! (Heart emoji) Love, Lisa

      Delete
  34. Lisa,

    If you need to purge me out, you are free to do so. I get that you have an opinion that I love Satan more than I love God, and you are free to have that opinion. If you are a good representation of the LOTS majority, I am certain I don't want to be a part of that, as your words are your fruits, and to me they are bitter. But feel free to consume them and govern yourself by them and prove them now herewith. Feel free to depart in peace into that good night. I will not stand in your way. We must all act upon the impressions we receive. If you get the impression from your God to judge me, then go with your God, for it surely is not my God.

    PEACE OUT!
    Rob Adolpho

    ReplyDelete
  35. Rob,

    You atttibute to our Lord, things that exist only in your own froward and argumentative mind. He has not prevented anything, either in Boise, nor in Phoenix. Those who CHOOSE to dispute, have done the preventing. It will be shown in time that those who CHOOSE to dispute, and be froward, are those who have prevented the Lord’s will to be done. Attributing actions to our Lord that do not belong to Him, and do not come from Him, is all done in vain, using His name.

    The key, that the froward and argumentative cannot see, is so simple. It is simply that it is a CHOICE to not dispute. It does not require agreeing to anything. It requires a choice to not dispute. The froward, and those who love, and live, by every opportunity to argue, are living by so lesser a law, that they may never know the one who Redeems them. When peace and unity is established among Gods people, when they finally agree to not dispute among them, then He can then guide and direct His people. Not before then.

    The great illusion of unanimous agreement may finally be the great separator. In this deception, there will be great division among the people. (2Nephi 30:9-10) A remnant of the remnant, will survive the coming calamities.

    “Now it’s also possible, in fact it’s probable, that at some point what the Lord will do is gather out a remnant of the remnant, gather out a few, and how many are essential in order for the promises to be fulfilled? I’m certain there is a minimum and I’m fairly confident that the minimum can be counted on your two hands, but there is no maximum. We’re not going to just have eight people on the ark; there can be more, there can be many more. The upper number is practically limitless.There is a minimum but heavens, why would anyone want that?” (That We might Become One” Page 8 Denver Snuffer)


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    Replies
    1. Anonymous,

      I do not dispute you leaving me behind. I do not dispute you. Go for the gold. Your anonymity is weak. Strong words said by someone who wants to remain anonymous.

      Toodles,
      Rob Adolpho

      Delete
    2. You fear the truth in the words of truth when they are spoken. It does not matter who speaks them. Those who freely exercise the choice to, “CHOOSE not to dispute among them,” are doing God’s will. Many mutually agree because of this simple choice. They may each disagree about which document they might prefer, but they mutually agree, and express that by CHOOSING not to dispute among them. You see, it’s peace, and unity that matters to our God, not every person aligning behind one document or another. The refusal to dispute is the higher law. And that is a simple choice. They, “CHOOSE to not dispute.

      Delete
    3. You consider anonymity to be weak? It will never be as weak and offensive to God’s spirit as froward and argumentative is.

      Love to you

      Your Sister

      Delete
    4. I chose not to dispute you. Go, be free to be you. Or were you waiting for me to agree with you?

      Anonymity is weak.

      Rob Adolpho

      Delete
    5. Anon,

      It is a strange idea to me that you believe a perfect God would use the word "agreement" when he really expects, as you suggest, that the assignment "does not require agreeing to anything."

      I understand that many people are under the impression that choosing not to (vocally) dispute (when you actually do) is somehow the higher road. That is a plan that cannot endure because when the rubber hits the road, what you agree to you agree to FOLLOW.

      Then there are those who really choose not to dispute because they are tired or hurried or just don't care. But if you agree, you still bind yourself. Therefore, maybe people should read more carefully what they are saying they agree to. It DOES matter.

      You are right that the choice is simple. Find the document to which we all agree and adopt it. Then no one is imposed upon. The Lord did not say, to my understanding, "Choose not to dispute." He said (paraphrasing) that you will know you have mutual agreement WHEN people no longer choose to dispute (because they agree). He was giving us a way to know when we've gotten to a place where we can add it, not a directive to accept anything placed before us.

      Delete
    6. To Rob & Q:

      Hey guys, I feel like I need to do some interpretation here for you, because you are OBVIOUSLY NOT ‘GETTING IT’. You see, because I am a Gentile I speak ‘Gentilese’ and since I’m married to a Polynesian and can speak that language too, so, hopefully, you will get it if I ‘break it down’ for you…

      Here’s my effort to translate for you– in the simplest terms:

      “You love Satan more than God. We are white, you are brown. We are pure, you are not. We are smart, you are dumb. We pray more than you, therefore can receive more revelation than you. We are big, you are small. Remnant does not mean ‘you’, it means ‘us’. Our document rules, your ‘non-document’ sucks. We have Denver on our side, you don’t. You need to change, we don’t. We love, you don’t. We are kind, you are mean and full of ‘frowardness’ (our new favorite buzzword). We know Wisdom, you don’t. We have the Authorized Servant, you don’t. We worship the true God, while you worship the ‘false’ God. We will make it to Zion, you will not.

      Now that you understand clearly what we are clearly saying, hopefully, you will stop DISPUTING and get in line with the rest of us, because we have prayed for YOU to change. It’s all your fault there is a division; otherwise everyone would see things our way and we would have 100% mutual agreement. We realize that this may seem like a cow-pie sandwich, but we will sprinkle some sugar on top and it will taste just like a donut. We hope this doesn’t offend anyone because we are only speaking truth and because we love you and want you to be with us. Adios suckas! Or in your own language “Aloha oe!” from the ha’ole (“no breath”) people….”

      So, anyway, that’s my best efforts at translation. If I missed a few words, I’ve at least shared the sentiment of the majority with you. Hope that helps!

      Delete
    7. Ooooooh! Now I get it!!! Thank you for the translation. I totally thought that you just didn't like us, but now I'm certain.

      Chris,

      You-da-man! Way to bring fun-back!

      Mahalo,

      Rob

      Delete
    8. Your fruits speak volumes about your hearts. Choose not to dispute among one another. All the sarcasm in the world, how ever clever (I guess?) will never change the truth given by God. Disgraceful comes to mind. Perhaps pitiful?

      Delete
    9. Dani,

      He does expect us to agree on something, that’s the very point. It’s not a document however. What He wants us to agree on, is, as between us, we “CHOOSE NOT TO DISPUTE.” Who cannot see? Who cannot hear, that what the Lord wants from His people is peace and unity? Despite any and all of our differences. CHOOSE(ing) not to dispute is His direction about what we ought to agree on. We will always disagree on one thing or another. However, we ought never dispute and argue among one another. To do so is offensive to God. He has asked us to mutually agree, or in other words to CHOOSE not to dispute. On this we should agree.

      Delete
    10. "On this we should agree."

      Unfortunately, Anon, no. I will choose to believe the words of Christ as they were given. There really are principles behind all of this that need to be upheld. Unity for unity's sake is not a principle of heaven. Charity and mercy, however, are as is non-compulsion. You would ask me to lie. You would ask me to compel others. You would ask me to trust in men. You would ask me to disbelieve the scriptures. These things I cannot agree to. Take care.

      Delete
    11. Actually it is. If you do indeed choose to believe and follow the words of Christ as they are given, then we agree that unity trumps the false notion that we must all agree on a document. Our agreement to CHOOSE not to dispute with one another, but rather choose to unite, is among the highest of principles.

      (D&C 105:3-5)

      3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;
      4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;
      5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.

      Delete
    12. You pervert the words of the Lord for your own ends.

      As I said, I get that many people believe that "unity trumps" the document, but the Lord said "mutual agreement." I will follow the Lord.

      Great scripture. And?

      Are we following the law of the celestial kingdom to impart of our substance and to keep ALL of God's commandments?

      As other people have stated, if we will do what God has asked with pure fidelity (even when it is hard, even when it seems impossible) and not insert our own minds of what is what, then we can become pure in heart and of one heart and one mind because we will give our will to what He has precisely asked. We will give our minds and hearts to be governed by His will, His mind, His heart. And unity can occur as a result of unifying with Christ. This is the unity that matters.

      Delete
  36. Lisa,

    I get it, you are righteous and I am not. You are going to make it to Zion and I am not. I am satan like and you are God like. Does that sum it up? Thank-you for trying to create unity. I wish the unity you and the majority have flourishes to your liking. Go forward in peace Lisa.

    Q

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    Replies
    1. The Lord knows what He is doing. I do not pretend to know all the answers. I just do what He asks me too. I am sorry you were offended. Thanks, Lisa

      Delete
    2. Lisa, I was not offended, I was just acknowledging I understand your comment. I am glad you do what He asks of you. I was sincere in my wish to you and the majority.
      Take Care, Q

      Delete
  37. Guys, guys, guys. May I ask that we please stop this...whatever it is we are doing?

    Maybe if we try to ignore whatever we think is being said or has been done, we can move into a space where love and the Holy Spirit can freely move around? What do you think? Can we try? Or is everyone okay with their connections to heaven?

    How can we stop this foolishness? Is it not foolishness? If I am not enjoying the company of angels and messengers from the Lord is it not because my thoughts, my desires, my words and actions are not drawing them to me, as depicted in Denver's tenth parable? Are we still continuing to have conversations too low and too mean and too unbecoming whose we claim to be?

    I feel like if I will apply Christ's covenant to "receive the scriptures approved by the Lord as a standard to govern [me] in [my] daily walk in life...and to use the scriptures to correct [myself] and to guide [my] words, thoughts, and deeds" then maybe I will be enabled to not see the faults, failings, and weaknesses of my brothers and sisters so readily. Goodness knows I've got enough sins, weaknesses, and issues to bring the whole group down.

    Can we try to maybe simply govern ourselves and not seek so much to correct or "teach" others? Can we choose to follow Nephi's wisdom and apply the scriptures to ourselves individually rather than to everybody else?

    Like, even if it is Roman soldiers who nailed us to a wooden cross, ought we not to ask ABBA to forgive them? Even if something is said with malice or ill will, ought we not to return good for evil? We say we follow Christ, but are we found doing as He did?

    I want to learn how to do this. But it seems we are continuing to repeat over and over all the things YHWH condescended to counsel us to stop. Is that possibly true?

    Shall I ignore my own eyes blinded with beams while I think the motes in others' eyes render them more blind?

    Or shall I choose to forgive and repent of my own follies?

    Please? What will it take to get us to stop running on the insanity treadmill?

    ReplyDelete
  38. WOW
    Well, the way it looks to me right now on this G&S debacle, (although it probably has very little to do with the G&S) we can continue to argue for or against any G&S all we want but at this point, in my opinion, that would be a waste!
    We don’t have anything close to mutual agreement under any definition! And bucket loads of disputation.
    But this whole us poor minority and your big bad majority OR you obstinate/froward minority horseshit needs to end!
    I DON’T BELONG TO EITHER GROUP. I belong to the covenant group!
    How about we START, by STOPPING with all the labeling?
    And I printed off the Lots version less than a week ago and put it in my scriptures as a show of unity and a desire for the contention to end. Obviously, that didn’t work. But, it will remain there until something better is produced.
    So, I recommend we all take a big deep breath and hit the PAUSE button on the G&S.
    Those who wanted a G&S done "NOW" have one in the Lots document that was partially agreed upon.
    Those who "REJECT" that and aren’t in any hurray to have one can take all the time they want to get what they are after.
    Maybe we want to use the fast this Saturday as an opportunity to recalibrate, let go of all the poison and spend some time doing as Christ did?
    WE NEED TO START OVER!
    However we should probably wait for a period of time for emotions to subside before looking at the new permanent mutually agreed upon G&S.
    For what it’s worth, that’s how I feel at this point.

    ReplyDelete
  39. For all, or those who might enjoy some beautiful, gentle hymns. <3

    Abide with Me, Hayley Westenra
    https://youtu.be/1_z2EQSZVLU

    Amazing Grace, BYU Noteworthy
    https://youtu.be/X6Mtpk4jeVA

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  40. John, you and I have communicated before and even though we disagreed, I don’t believe either of us were “disagreeable”. In fact, I’ve been looking forward to meeting sometime with you face to face because I have appreciated our online conversations.

    Honestly, I would, in fact, be agreeable to fasting and praying with the group this weekend were it not for the fact that what is being proposed is another way to get the minority to stick the Lots document in the scriptures. I do not agree with it.

    Most people keep saying “it’s not about the Document, so stop choosing to dispute”. That is NOT true - It is totally and completely about the Document. It reminds me of that short movie on the internet: “It’s Not About The Nail” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg) “It’s Not About the Document”….really? It is totally about the Document, but so many cannot or do not want to “acknowledge” it.

    Before the Lots document, people were not “disputing”, but there was actual dialogue taking place. It wasn’t until the marketing campaign for the Lots got into full swing that there became an issue – not only with the document, but the entire process.

    The definition of ‘mutual agreement’ has changed dramatically over the last 6+ months. What people mean NOW (ie. today) when they say ‘mutual agreement’ is: “choose not to dispute [the Lots document]”. Sure, they don’t add that last part, but that is what is meant. Otherwise, there would be no dispute. We believe in nearly all the same things. Again, there would be no disputations among us if the Lots document were not trying to be pushed down the minority’s throats.

    The minority DOES NOT HAVE A DOCUMENT that we are marketing, campaigning, or promoting for. We acknowledge freely that we don't have all the answers. We are wanting to work together and get our hearts right. Once that is right, then writing the document should be much easier. The majority want us to stop disputing, accept their document and then work on our hearts. It puts the ‘cart before the horse’.

    Here’s an idea: Why won’t the majority STOP DISPUTING and put down their document? I mean, seriously, completely let it go. Instead of asking us to stop disputing, and agree with their document why don’t they lay down their document and start over???

    Lastly, I agree and would love to reset this whole thing. However, some people cannot seem to let go. They have too much at stake – their reputations, the idea that Lots must have been chosen by God, all of it.

    Now, I believe there will either be a dividing with those in the majority wanting to leave behind the minority who have not seen fit to “stop disputing”, or there will be a reset and a desire among people to seek to get our hearts right first and then we can work together on a document without anyone trying to control the outcome…except God.

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    1. Jeff
      I absolutely agree people can disagree without being/acting disagreeable.
      On the G&S, I still do not believe “all this” is about that. You apparently do. I think many of the proposed documents would be good enough before the Lord, my belief is that’s why so many feel the Lords hand involved in their documents, He probably was. You don’t?
      Most likely however in the Lords plan for us to do this without Denver, even though it in of itself is a light thing, has brought to the forefront the REAL CHALLENGE”. HOW TO SELF-GOVERN!! How is it to be done? Well, now we know we need to figure that out before we will be moving forward, TOGETHER!
      But this continued labeling of people and assigning them a “party” is wrong and needs to end. We’re to be the sons and daughters of God, His covenant people, not political opponents fighting for OUR AGENDA at all costs right or wrong. That evil “majority” and the hapless “minority” that keeps getting thrown around here is an allusion and meant to pit us against one another. Those two groups DON’T EXSIST. They’ve been created, they cause division.
      We’re do be Gods covenant people, trying to accomplish something that hasn’t worked but two times in recorded history. Obviously, it’s a big challenge. But we "together" need to seek further light and knowledge on the matter.
      And no, I didn’t mean fast this Saturday to get “those people” to agree with “those other people”!
      I said to fast and pray for the ability to let go of the poison, soften our hearts “before the Lord” so that we, as a people, can receive that direction we desperately need. My suggestion was and is though, that it not have anything to do with the G&S this Saturday. But how we move forward in a whole new way of self-governance together as one, a covenant people.
      Chances are we spent some millions of years prepping for this very hour, lets not blow it now!

      Delete
  41. "Chances are we spent some millions of years prepping for this very hour" - indeed.

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  42. Could someone who opposes the Lots document - which contains the teachings of Jesus Christ given in our day to correct our errors and establish more fully ancient christian worship - please take time to explain to those who believe it is a wonderful blessing to those who know nothing of this work now underway - why you are so opposed to it?

    Everything in that document contains the light of pure teachings of God through His prophet in this New Dispensation - all of which brought ALL of us to the point of accepting a Covenant through Denver. How is it that it is such a horrible representation to those who know nothing of Gods work now underway?

    That is what we cannot understand. The intent is to help us keep the ordinances pure and give guidance on how we can fellowship like the ancient Christians. It is not a rule book or handbook and cannot "bind" anyone. I think we should be "bound" to live the teachings the Lord has given us in our own day through His servant, no?

    Help us understand the dogged opposition to the contents of this document.

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  43. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    1. Log:"As of 11/27/18, this assignment has been simplified for you all to the point where all you have to do to succeed is to cease your dispute against [disagreement with] The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles."

      It's only April.

      November isn't here yet.

      So don't you mean 11/27/2017?

      Delete
    2. Why yes, yes, I do. Thanks for the catch.

      JL

      Delete
    3. You're welcome.

      Now may I ask you another question?

      I believe you've warned everyone here that they can't be sure that they're personal revelations come from God unless they're perfectly keeping the commandments Christ gave in the sermon on the mount.

      Do you keep those commandments perfectly?

      Delete
    4. Ask God, who is my judge in that matter.

      JL

      Delete
  44. Well Okay then, I'm taking a break from this debacle and I wont be coming back to this place, the Lord has actual work taking place out there that needs attending to.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. John,
      I agree with you about leaving this place. I don't think that the loudest voices on here have bothered to notice that most people in this movement have already walked away from "the barn" that this place has devolved into. At this point, there are probably less than 10 people posting and posting and posting, as if they are the center of the universe. I'm not going to pretend that there is anything worthwhile or noble being accomplished in the online interactions at this point.

      Delete
    2. I understand HL (and others)...sometimes the things I read here can be pretty jolting...harsh...even startling. I keep reminding myself we are all made from the same clay and what's it going to take to get more peace and love? I hope you and others who may be giving up on this group will stay and help us move towards our goal...unity, hope and peace and love.

      Delete
  45. Reposted to correct a typo:

    As of 11/27/2017 this assignment has been simplified for you all to the point where all you have to do to succeed is to cease your dispute against [disagreement with] The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles.

    You literally cannot succeed at this assignment, nor fulfill the Boise Covenant, unless and until you do so.

    By all means, fast and pray - but remember that unless you really do what is required to get an answer from the Lord, you have no promise that he will answer. And if you have no promise that he will answer because you do not fulfill his stated conditions, and if you are answered, then it may not be him who answered. Therefore if you do not know your answer comes from him you may well be deceived. Either way, nobody should trust your revelations, for that would be to trust in men.

    Here are the conditions the Lord has set forth for you to be answered by him.

    1 Nephi 15:11
    Do ye not remember the thing which the Lord hath said?
    If ye will not harden your hearts
    and ask me in faith
    believing that ye shall receive
    with diligence in keeping my commandments
    surely these things shall be made known unto you.


    If you do not keep his commandments, you have no promise that the Lord will answer you. Here are five actionable and specific commandments you must keep to be assured the Lord will answer you.

    1. If anyone hits you on one cheek, turn the other cheek to him (Luke 6:29; Matt 5:39; 3 Nephi 12:39).
    2. If anyone takes your cloak, allow him to have your coat too (Luke 6:29; Matt 5:40; 3 Nephi 12:40).
    3. Give to every person who asks you to (Luke 6:30; Matt 5:42; 3 Nephi 12:42).
    4. Do not ask for your stuff back from anyone who takes it (Luke 6:30).
    5. Lend to everyone who asks, do not ask for it back (#4), and hope that you do not get paid back (Luke 6:34-35; Matt 5:42; 3 Nephi 12:42).

    If you are not doing these things, you have no promise from the Lord that he will answer you, and whatever answers you get are suspect.

    There are lying spirits that answer prayers, and even testify of true messengers, as we can plainly see from the scriptures.

    This is the guide God has given, and we have claimed to receive by covenant, for obtaining answers from him.

    LDS D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

    Jared Livesey

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  46. "If your hearts were right" = If you actually wanted to do what I say
    "it was a light thing I have asked." = then it was an easy task I asked you to do.
    "You hinder" = You block others from doing the task
    "and delay" = and you wait without a reason to
    "and then you say I require too much of you" = and then you say the task is too hard or impossible
    "and do not allow you time," = and you say I don't give you enough time to do it
    "when, if your hearts were right" = when if you actually wanted to do what I say
    "and you prepared yourselves" = and you had prepared yourself through keeping my commandments, study, fasting, and mighty prayer
    "you could have finished this work long ago." = you would have had power to complete this task a long time ago.
    "Do you indeed desire to be my people?" = Do you really want to be obedient to my law and commandments and become one with me?
    "Then accept" = If so, then accept
    "and do as I have required." = and do what I have commanded you.

    JL

    ReplyDelete
  47. Of course, if we were keeping the law and commandments of the Lord, we'd have been done a long time ago. For if we had taken his law and commandments for our principles, we would have agreed upon them as our written guide and standard. That we do not agree upon them is evidence we do not keep his law and commandments.

    Instead of repenting and keeping his law and commandments and accepting and doing as he has required of us, we propose procedures, each one with the clear goal of evading the Lord's clear requirement that we adopt a guide and standard by mutual agreement.

    And we justify ourselves crying "precedence! The minority should be made to submit to the mob, not the mob to the minority!"

    As if we had not all ought to be submitting to Christ by diligently keeping his commandments - the stuff that's in The Rock of Jesus Christ - but actually doing those things seems to be exactly what we don't want to do.

    And we revile and backstab and accuse and throw childish tantrums all the while.

    JL

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  48. Jared: did you mean to include yourself here?

    "As if we had not all ought to be submitting to Christ by diligently keeping his commandments."

    Does that mean you still have to work on this?

    And did you also mean to include yourself here?

    "And we revile and backstab and accuse and throw childish tantrums all the while."

    Do you still have such faults, and do you still fall short of pefection?

    Please reply.

    "confess your faults to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed."

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  49. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  50. I speak of and to the body generally, Michael.

    JL

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    Replies
    1. Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

      JL

      Delete
    2. Scripture still tells us to confess our faults to one another, and the way it's worded, it would appear to be a commandment.

      And scripture also tells us that we should judge ourselves.

      So if you've been trying to tell us that we must perfectly measure up to the sermon on the mount before we can trust any personal revelations we've received (which I believe is the point you were trying to make earlier on this thread), please tell us if you perfectly measure up to that standard?

      And please remember that the scriptures you covenanted to accept as a guide to live by tell us to confess our faults to one another.

      Do you yourself perfectly keep the law of Christ, or are you still working at it (like the rest of us)?

      Please reply.

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    4. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed.

      For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

      http://scriptures.info/Scriptures/

      Please tell us if you're above your own advice here Jared.

      Can you honestly say that you're beyond deception because you perfectly keep the commandments of Christ?

      Please reply.

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  51. "So if you've been trying..."

    And if I haven't been, aren't you falsely accusing me?

    Jared L.

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    1. And isn't "Judge not" a commandment, Michael?

      Jared L.

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    2. Isn't that precisely your point here?

      "By all means, fast and pray - but remember that unless you really do what is required to get an answer from the Lord, you have no promise that he will answer. And if you have no promise that he will answer because you do not fulfill his stated conditions, and if you are answered, then it may not be him who answered. Therefore if you do not know your answer comes from him you may well be deceived. Either way, nobody should trust your revelations, for that would be to trust in men.

      Here are the conditions the Lord has set forth for you to be answered by him.

      1 Nephi 15:11
      Do ye not remember the thing which the Lord hath said?
      If ye will not harden your hearts
      and ask me in faith
      believing that ye shall receive
      with diligence in keeping my commandments
      surely these things shall be made known unto you.

      If you do not keep his commandments, you have no promise that the Lord will answer you. Here are five actionable and specific commandments you must keep to be assured the Lord will answer you.

      1. If anyone hits you on one cheek, turn the other cheek to him (Luke 6:29; Matt 5:39; 3 Nephi 12:39).
      2. If anyone takes your cloak, allow him to have your coat too (Luke 6:29; Matt 5:40; 3 Nephi 12:40).
      3. Give to every person who asks you to (Luke 6:30; Matt 5:42; 3 Nephi 12:42).
      4. Do not ask for your stuff back from anyone who takes it (Luke 6:30).
      5. Lend to everyone who asks, do not ask for it back (#4), and hope that you do not get paid back (Luke 6:34-35; Matt 5:42; 3 Nephi 12:42).

      If you are not doing these things, you have no promise from the Lord that he will answer you, and whatever answers you get are suspect.

      There are lying spirits that answer prayers, and even testify of true messengers, as we can plainly see from the scriptures."

      Didn't you say that Jared?

      And isn't the point you were trying to make that we can't be sure any revelations we receive are from God unless we measure up to the sermon on the mount?

      And if that was your point, how am I accusing you falsely?

      Why do you accuse me?

      And how am I judging you when I ask you if you measure up to that standard yourself?

      I'm not saying you don't, and I'm not assuming you don't.

      I'm asking you--do you Jared?

      Do you perfectly measure up to that standard Jared?

      Are you yourself beyond deception?

      And if you still have any faults, please confess having them to your brothers and sisters here (as James told us to confess our faults to one another in the scriptures you promised to live your life by.)

      It might encourage some poor struggling saint to continue the fight if they know you share their infirmities.

      So please tell us, have you progressed beyond the apostle Paul, who said "not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I follow after — that I may lay hold of him, who also I am laid hold of — Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have laid hold of but one thing: forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God, in Christ Jesus."

      Please reply Jared.

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    3. Where did I use the word "perfectly," Michael?

      And if I didn't, aren't you falsely accusing me, even if you cannily phrase your accusation in terms of your own belief about what I am saying, rather than what I actually said?

      Jared L.

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    4. That was meant to be a question, it wasn't intended rhetorically, and should have ended in a question mark.

      Are you still reaching and stretching forward like others here, and can you please offer them some encouragement by admitting you share their struggle, or have you already reached the mark?

      Please reply Jared.

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    5. Why do you persist in attempting to judge me, even though you claim to believe Christ commanded you to not judge?

      Why do you persist in attempting to judge my service to God, even though Paul, said, in essence, not to do that?

      Why do you not wait upon God for the answer to your questions rather than asking me?

      Do you believe that "cursed is the man that trusteth in man?"

      If you do believe it, why do you ask me anything instead of relying solely upon God?

      "To the pure all things are pure."

      Why, therefore, do you not assume I am pure?

      Jared L.

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    6. For if you assumed I was pure, you would not be inquirring (sic) as to what sins I may or may not be committing.

      Jared L.

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    7. "LogApril 11, 2018 at 4:09 PM
      Where did I use the word "perfectly," Michael?"

      I'm sorry.

      I thought that was you're point.

      So diligently trying to live up to the sermon on the mount is enough to be sure you're not being deceived by lying spirits, and your personal revelations are of God?

      And you yourself are still struggling to live up to that standard, and share that struggle with others here?

      Right?

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    8. Do you not believe the scriptures?

      JL

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    10. I asked you if you were "perfect"'-is that what you mean by "pure"?

      Should I assume you're perfect unless God tells me you're not?

      And should I assume Adrian and Denver are?

      Or was making such an assumption the very mistake you say you made in Boise?

      Please just tell us if you struggle to overcome faults like the rest of us, or if you've already overcome?

      If you have human faults I request you do as James told us to do in the scriptures you promised to guide your life by in Boise (and confess having them to your brothers and sisters here.)

      Don't you believe those scriptures, and accept them as a guide in life Jared?

      Please reply.

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    11. So when you decide you believe the scriptures, and actually do want answers to your questions about me - if you still have them by that time - you have the means to obtain them.

      Until then,

      JL

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    12. Unless you're faultless it would appear you've chosen to disregard the scriptures you swore to guide you life by in Boise, because you haven't admitted having any faults here, and those scriptures tell us to confess our faults to one another.

      Also, if measuring up to the sermon on the mount involves granting every request made of you, it would appear that you've chosen to disregard that standard as well, because I've asked you to tell us if you have any faults.

      Will you continue to disregard scripture?

      I again ask you to tell us if you have any faults Jared.

      Please reply.

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