Monday, March 26, 2018

Proposed Statement of Principles

This is from D&C 4 (RE) . I haven’t been following this effort fully but I watched conference today and I don’t like to see the lack of unity. 
Could this be the Guide and Standard? A guide - meaning a thing that helps someone form an opinion or make a decision. A standard -  an idea used to measure a norm. It’s simple and sweet and to the point. Yet unique, it speaks of the lost sheep that the whole of the Book of Mormon speaks of, and it’s also the words from the Word of Life Himself, to Joseph Smith and to us today. 


  1. “Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I came unto my own and my own received me not. I am the light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not. I am he which said, Other sheep have I which are not of this fold, unto my disciples, and many there were which understood me not.
  2. And I will shew unto this people that I had other sheep and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob, and I will bring to light these marvelous works which they did in my name. Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them and behold, they shall not deny that which ye have received, but they shall build it up and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me. And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention. Yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine, and in these things they do err for they do arrest the scriptures and do not understand them. Therefore I will unfold unto them this great mystery, for behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings if they will not harden their hearts, yea, if they will come, they may and partake of the waters of life freely.
  3. Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. Whosoever declareth more or less then this is not of me, but is against me, therefore he is not of my church.
  4. Now behold, whosoever is of my church and endureth in my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
  5. And now, remember the words of him who is the life and the light of the world, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Amen.“

-Matthew

49 comments:

  1. Considering our current state of affairs, I am having a difficult time figuring out how we will ever agree totally. We were so close, probably as close as we will ever be. With Denver’s emphasis on differences in Fellowships, it seems he was saying we can all have our own brand of G&S. I was so pleased to see so many lay their own desires aside and vote to agree on the Lot’s G&S. I was so encouraged and optimistic until the fray started. The mood totally changed in the meeting. Gordon tried to maintain decorum without trying to control, but all feelings of love dissipated into strife and contention. I felt there was enough support behind the Lot’s verision that I should have no issue with including it in my scriptures. I am going to pray about it, and ensure I have the Lord’s blessing before doing so. I only see further disagreement from this point on. And apparently that is fine, disagree if you want, and just add your own G&S into your scriptures and use it in your own Fellowship if you wish. Our hearts will be the final judge, whether we were meek, easy to entreat, loving and supportive of each other. And I am very comfortable with that. This solution ends the disagreement and contention, at least it confines it to a fellowship level where it is more manageable. This seems to be the most viable solution at the moment. You are all free to continue to work however you see fit. If I am prompted to join in any efforts going forward I will. God bless you, until we gather at the river. :) Love, Lisa

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  2. Scripture Committee, is this your suggestion? It isn't clear to me whose idea this is. I think it sounds great, being in the scriptures after all. I just don't know that any will leave the stakes they've pounded into the earth to accept a single statement for the whole body of believers at this point. I don't even know if we are to do that anymore.

    I'd like to copy and paste a comment I just left elsewhere, a clear sign I am mentally and emotionally drained at this point.

    I feel a need to prayerfully consider things right now.

    In a way, the "solution" of every family or fellowship writing their own G&S and adding it to their scriptures seems good and right. But if that is true, then why did we as a whole struggle to see it that way for so long? Is that the "if your hearts were right" issue? We were unwilling to allow others to determine their version of a personal G&S?

    When Christ said He was speaking to us as "one" did He mean each one of us or the whole group together? Depending upon how that is interpreted will impact how we plan to move forward, I think. It probably determined what has happened thus far.

    The vote at the end of Saturday's session was hard to witness. I think I was okay with the first part, inviting everyone to choose their preferred statement, but it felt wrong to continue beyond that. So very wrong. There was definitely a spirit of contending felt just in doing a vote. Maybe that was just mine and my husband's perception though.

    If we are each able to choose or write our own statement of principles, there is no need to even know what a "majority" of people want, right?

    I can understand that it felt like there was contention, but from my perspective, as my husband and I sat watching, it appeared there was a room filled with people who lacked charity and compassion. I saw people standing alone. I was not okay with that, whether or not I agreed with them was irrelevant to me. The majority had many people to support them, but those few...who was willing to strengthen them and walk with them a mile? Who was willing to listen? It was in that moment I would have been willing to "submit" my desires, whatever they were, to help them. It would have been the ideal moment to humble myself, asking if we could all kneel and pray collectively yet individually for His part. That is how I wish it had gone.

    I believe everyone in that room contributed to the energy of the moment, either positively or negatively. That is also true for the entire covenant body and this process; we have all made contributions to the energy, the atmosphere if you will, whether we have commented openly or not. We cannot hide what is in our hearts. It seeps outward to touch the world.

    I feel a fierce love in my heart for this group. I want to fight for us, in prayer and supplications. I feel so weak and vulnerable, yet know we each have goodness and gifts to contribute that will benefit the whole.

    I don't know what will happen now, but I hope relationships can be healed, fences mended, bridges rebuilt. Hopefully we can leave the drama to Shakespeare now and learn to believe in each other as we seek Christ.

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  3. I really like what someone said in the other thread:

    "There is nothing in the A&C restricting me from selecting my own G&S."

    Now's that's a statement I can agree with (provided "me" is really me or you or anyone else, and we are applying it to our own choice, not someone else's).

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  4. Matthew, that was beautiful. Thank you for sharing. I definatly support and agree with what you have written and took the time to share with us all.

    Love Eva

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  5. I've not as yet gotten involved with this site or any of the GNS's in any degree but have felt very strongly to now.

    Just for some minor introduction so I'm not only words on a screen, I was the first speaker at the Saturday Session of the Phoenix Conference. My Wife's name is Heather. For those who don't know me...good. My name is not important.

    The Answer to the prayer for covenant was given over 6 months ago. Since it appears no one has yet read the paragraph pertaining to the commandment to write a Statement of Principles, I will quote it here.

    "You are not excused from writing a statement of principles that I have required at your hands. I forbade my servant David from participating, and again forbid him. But I require a statement of principles to be adopted by the mutual agreement of my people, for if you cannot do so you will be unable to accomplish other works that I will require at your hands. When you have an agreed statement of principles I require it to also be added as a guide and standard for my people to follow. Remember there are others who know nothing, as yet, of my work now underway, and therefore the guide and standard is to bless, benefit and inform them-so I command you to be wise in word and kind in deed as you write what I require of you."

    Statement of Principles is repeated three times before the function even clarified to be a "guide" and a "standard". Was statementofprinciples.blogspot URL taken? Even the name of this forum appears to ignore the paragraph from the answer. Maybe that could be step 1?

    I only commented because I saw Eva commented before me. That is apt. Did anyone hear the opening prayer for Sunday morning session?! That was her. It was the most beautiful prayer I've ever heard. I asked her afterward if she wrote it. While it leaned heavily on scripture, she wrote that prayer. Let's learn from her wise comment above for a moment which is so incredibly wise maybe she doesn't even realize it. "I definitely support and agree with what you have written". She was speaking to Matthew, the author of this post. She agreed with "what Matthew has written". What did HE write in his post? He wrote the first two paragraphs. While I also agree with his first two paragraphs he wrote, he did NOT write any more of his post. I think the first two paragraphs of his post would be a rather confusing statement of principles which would confuse those who yet know nothing of all this. After the first two paragraphs, he quoted already written scripture which was penned by no one living today as we are. You see where I'm going? The answer says "to be wise in word and kind in deed as YOU write". While I have only read a few of the GNS's, I understand most, if not all of them restate the Doctrine of Christ with the argument "who else's words are worthy of the GNS except Christ's?". This argument is used while CHRIST HIMSELF has instructed us in the Answer to prayer for covenant to write something ourselves and did not mention the word "Doctrine" at all in His commandment. So basically the argument is to listen to Christ alone while simultaneously ignoring Christ. The word irony falls comically short. Irony needs to be leveled up multiple times to adequately capture this.

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    1. Were you the dude with the Darth Vader tee? My husband and I loved it! Hubs is a Star Wars nutter and also likes to wear funny tees. We enjoyed all the talks and the music of this conference. Thank you everyone involved! Sorry for interrupting your thought. :)

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    2. Don’t be sorry for injecting!!! Yes that’s me ;) That was my brothers shirt, who was killed. I don’t know if you could see it all. It said “I’m not saying your wrong, I’m just saying your lack of faith is disturbing” I thought the shirt was very apt. My brother had so many funny Star Wars shirts. We both love Star Wars.

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  6. Lastly and most importantly, "wise in word and kind in deed". I am so grateful that I'm currently dispossessed of the arrogance and stupidity to think that I, a Son of Adam, could possibly be as "wise in word" or "kind in deed" as a Daughter of Eve. Unless I am mistaken, not a single GNS presented for a vote was authored exclusively by a Daughter or multiple Daughters of Eve. Who is surprised the vote failed in dramatic fashion? Literally everything about the command has been ignored! Denver went into detail in his talk about the "Word of Wisdom", which was also not meant to be a commandment (actually writing the statement of principles is the commandment, the document itself will not be) and came through Emma. Look at the answer wording: "wise in word". Are we all literally blind and/or illiterate? How can we be slapped in the face harder?

    Denver has been forbidden to participate. Has Stephanie, his Wife been forbidden? I'm pretty sure her input is fair game. (Stephanie I have never met you and if you read this please do not be mad for me bringing this idea up! I Love you!) I would bet she could either come up with a face-meltingly wise statement of principles or at least have some ideas as to the number and selection method of the WOMEN who could write one. Eva wrote that opening prayer on Sunday. I humbly submit she could come up with a statement of principles so wise and magnificent it would make us all cry, both at its beauty and at our own frowardness (hey this did try autocorrecting to "forwardness" but I power owned that!) in taking so long to even simply read the answer regarding the statement of principles.

    I hear a lot of people saying in desperation to just have everyone put their own GNS in their own scriptures. I can appreciate the desperation, but before we simply try something else which also completely ignores the Answer and commandment to write a "statement of principles", maybe we try doing precisely what Christ instructed us to?

    I just quickly want to thank the vote dissenters for caring so much about our success and ability to move forward toward Zion in raising their precious Voices. I saw a lot of women standing. They felt the grave mistake happening and spoke up. When Rob Adolfo suggested the dissenters should simply leave my heart nearly broke in half. If that dear brother, who is fighting for US (and not himself) ever leaves, we’re done. I'll state that rather boldly.

    I understand the temptation to ignore me because I'm a Son of Adam. But I am the oldest of 8 kids. The rest are all girls. My Mother is a Saint and my father is the antithesis of Wisdom. So for being a male, I am somewhat acquainted with what wisdom is and what it is not.

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    1. I loved your talk, nameless fellow. The message of loving people exactly as and even because of who they are and how they behave in ways that may rub us wrong was so lovely and relevant, in my opinion.

      I've also never commented on this or any other forum related to this assignment, but I have followed the effort much closer than I ever wanted to, both online and via in-person conversations. I find your suggestions intriguing and agree with what you have said. I only comment because, if you haven't been following, you have no way of knowing that there are many, many people who have spent the past nine months having their minds consumed and, more to the point, hearts shredded by this process. However imperfect we all have been, and I agree that that level is astounding, it is not for lack of effort or desire. Please know that. As we move forward, I hope we can assume the best intentions in each other and use extra care in the tones we use with each other even when we feel moved to speak with boldness. I have delivered some devastating wounds myself when I've made exasperated remarks without the understanding of the soul-wrenching processes many have gone through.

      I pray that we can remember how tender each of our hearts are. I believe we all have the desire to act in love and to come together in understanding, I really do. We're just really bad at it, and it's probably a great thing we're being given this opportunity to face that fact squarely. Thank you for your comments, and I hope my response is taken as it's meant and causes no offense to anyone.

      -elyssa

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    2. Hi Elyssa,

      What a pretty spelling of your name. I also meant no offense whatsoever to anyone, and sincerely apologize as it appears my forthright writing style may have come off the wrong way. Believe me Elyssa, I’m painfully aware that the breaking of hearts is required for us. I thought I was prepared for it. I was not. I humbly submit we should take the breaking of our hearts as a blessing. While it may not feel so now, this process has been to our collective benefit. God’s Wisdom is beyond our comprehension indeed.

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  7. "Do not murmur saying, Too much has been required at our hands in too short a time. If your hearts were right it was a light thing I have asked. You hinder and delay and then you say I require too much of you and do not allow you time, when, if your hearts were right and you prepared yourselves you could have finished this work long ago. Do you indeed desire to be my people? then accept and do as I have required." Answer and Covenant pg. 8

    The focus is on our hearts. Our hearts being unprepared or weak, caused the cascade effect of hindering which delays us from completing the work. In this context, I believe when it says, "If your hearts were right it was a light thing I have asked." this can say that our hearts are weak, unable to carry the burden of this task because we lack sufficient light, the kind of light from Wisdom, which if received would have strengthened our hearts enough to make this assignment light, easily born because of the borrowed strength from Wisdoms' light.

    It is a "light" thing, not only a matter of knowledge, but also the focus to me clearly rests upon a lack of strength in order for us to fulfill this commandment because our hearts are too weak; consequently, it's heavy and not 'light.' This is why I believe if we strengthen our hearts with Wisdoms' council, we can easily carry out this assignment as a light-weight and a light-filled task.

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  9. Who is the YOU Christ said is not excused in writing a statement of principles? 

    If He is intentional and specific in the words He uses, was He possibly addressing people past, present, and future who have and also will accept His covenant? Are they also going to be required to write a statement of principles? I don't see where Christ said they would need to accept anything already written!

    What if "those who know nothing as yet..." are our children, grandchildren, and families? A situation like what is described in RE Mosiah 11:18? 

    What care would each of us as a father or mother, son or daughter, brother or sister give to writing a statement meant "to bless, benefit, and inform THEM?" (emphasis added) (The pattern suggests a statement is to be a blessing first, then a benefit, with informing last. More for me to ponder and pray over.)

    I've learned a sure way to get something wrong is to assume I know what it means without pausing to ask Christ if my understanding is correct to begin with. I wonder if we have unwittingly done that here.

    If we are to craft our own statements according to the Lord's voice to ourselves, then perhaps what individuals and groups have expressed as Christ's voice to them has been right...for them! I don't need to judge or condemn or even accept such as my title of liberty, but am free to follow Christ's voice in my own family. 

    And those who do wish to craft a statement en masse, like the lots document, are also free to do that, and anyone could accept such if they want to. We could all openly share our inspired statements without anyone feeling pressured to agree, mutual agreement happening in families and fellowships. 

    It all looks beautiful and unique with that perspective. I could honestly say I appreciate each one without feeling pressured to do as others are doing. 

    Would it be wise and kind to support all families and fellowships in following their own inspiration in writing a guide and standard? 

    Would they not learn a lot for and about both themselves and the Lord through such an experience?

    Thoughts? I'm not preaching a gospel message here, but sincerely would like feedback and differing perspectives. Hence why I put most all my ideas as questions.

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    1. From the Answer “A statement of principles”. Singular. “Mutual agreement”. I personally agree with your idea to support each fellowship in their own statements, however I am not charge. Christ is. The Answer is not ambiguous my friend. I renew my humble request that we follow the Lord and Him alone.

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    2. Thank you for your response. I will continue to pray about what I am thinking and have offered here.

      This process has been drawn out for a while now and I feel like we are all stretched to breaking; at least I am. Not a bad thing necessarily, but strong emotions can block Spirit's promptings.

      I do not see a way forward right now and do not wish to repeat what has gone on before, causing the same divisions and hurts. It does feel like we have exhausted our own way of thinking and doing.

      I need more light, His light, to show me the way. I desire to comprehend His mind and heart so that I know my understanding of His Answer is correct. Plus, He knows the way for us to accomplish His command to write a statement of principles, whether that is as families, fellowships, or the current covenant body. But I am puzzled why He would require *us* to do this now when those coming along afterward will not be part of any of the writing or voting, and what that means for them. Should we not also invite those who have recently accepted Christ's covenant to participate in writing a statement? When Christ said "you" who was He specifically referring to? Past, present, or future? Or all? How can any of us in the present write if those of the future should also write?

      What statement of principles can any of *us* write that is not already espoused in the word of God? And I am pondering what I would want to offer and teach my own family.

      And I am so thankful the scripture committee noticed the Lord said "add" and not 'publish and print.' There is a difference. We were the ones who assumed it had to be publish and print. But maybe we have been wrong?

      Sorry. I like to think, write, and discuss. :)

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    3. Never be sorry for sharing your thoughts! They are sincere and beautiful! I suggest to look at the use of the word you throughout the entire answer. The answers to all the questions you have asked can be definitively answered by looking at the answer to prayer for covenant alone. Nothing else is needed. I never cease to be amazed at our Lords clarity.

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  10. I would like to direct anyone who is interested to a relevant blog:


    https://agreetingandinvitation.blogspot.com/2018/03/greetings.html

    Thanks,

    Doug Larson

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    1. Hallelujah Brother! I applaud your sincere expression of ideas and open mind. We will now proceed to find the majority who currently feel "right" and "vindicated" because they were in the majority vote for the lots GNS, (without regard for the dissenting minority) will now take up newly reinforced positions, feeling justified even while in total opposition to the answer to the prayer for covenant. Once a majority again come into harmony as one under Wisdom's guidance as the Answer instructs, the tables will be turned and the new minority will be placed in the mirrored position from where they are now. They will then need to hearken unto Wisdom for unfeigned and true mutual agreement to take place. I pray that cycle can be broken by heeding Wisdom's council and we can become unified. Become one. We either all succeed together or we all fail together. No one can proceed until EVERYONE proceeds together. The Lord has declared it. That will not happen until the Lord's instruction is followed to the letter. The Answer is not ambiguous. "Mutual agreement" is not "majority". This is not subjective wording. Mutual agreement is the sign we are following the Lord's command.

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  11. Can we please stop using "us" and "them", "majority" and "dissenters, or other such wording. It is divisive and incorrect. I don't know of anyone who was in favor of the Lots document that felt "right" or "vindicated".
    Many tend to assume what they think others feel and think and it is not true. Please stop pointing fingers and making accusations.
    Our task is not to revel in the supposed success or perceived failure of each other. Should we not be encouraging each other and trying to calmly and lovingly work together?

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    1. I have written a response out twice now, haha. I realized I am feeling defensive. I will just say I am sorry if my comments came across in any of the ways you expressed. Not my intention.

      PS--Thank you for recommending the book "Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself" in a comment you left a while back elsewhere on this blog. I am thoroughly enjoying it and learning a lot. If I may return the favor you might enjoy "The Anatomy of Peace." It is another good one I am currently reading.

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    2. Glad you are enjoying the book. I will take a look at the one you recommend as well.
      Happy Easter😘

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    3. Thank you Janeen for your wise and loving counsel. I accept it and invite others to consider it. I am grateful for Gordon and his good faith efforts to unite our hearts. I did not see the vote Saturday as an attempt to produce a "winning" document as some have characterized it...I saw it as an honest effort and attempt to unite our hearts. After seeing what we saw Saturday morning, my wife and I are pleased to add the Lots document to our family scriptures (for now). I believe others should consider adding a statement of principles to their scriptures that they are comfortable with. Meanwhile, I'm grateful for the continuing efforts to unite our hearts...and to help us be a humble and obedient people and to "calmly and lovingly work together." Thank you again Janeen.

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    4. Thank you Donald. I appreciate your words.

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    5. Oh Janeen! I'm not sure if we have met but I can feel your sweet, kind, and wise spirit. IF only all were where you are I think we may be able to truly become One, as a sign to the Lord we will follow His commandments. Unfortunately for all of us, collectively, until we come to "mutual agreement" as the Lord has commanded, we are, by definition, divided. Make no mistake. We are, at this time, mutually divided. I see and continue to see so many comments clearly expressing both vindication AND justification at the lots document because of the majority vote and have decided to include it in their own scriptures without regard to the Lords commandment AND without regard to those who are not putting it in theirs. We are divided Janeen. Myself included. There is nothing LESS foreign to this world than a majority vote. That is how EVERYTHING is decided here. To quote a wise prophet regarding Zion "What is to be created is something so foreign to this world, there is nothing in the world to tell us how we are doing". I point fingers at no one. But to ignore our current state of disobedience at the Lord's command is not the Answer. "Wisdom counsels men to align their words with their hearts". If we do not collectively accept we are divided and not "One", how can we repent and become One? My heart takes courage that one such as you, Janeen, is part of all this and helping this group to become One. I beg you to please not give up on me.

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    6. “Wisdom counsels *mankind* to align their words with their hearts”. My mistake.

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    7. It has been helpful for me to listen again to Denver's Sunday talk "Our Divine Parents"...from about 2:42:50 on.

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    8. sorry....I should have included a link to the video of Denver's talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qiyzKzomls

      only the best of feelings. :)

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  14. 1 of 2

    To: The Movement

    Leading up to this past weekend, and given the “audience participation,” the common thing I get to hear is “You’re dark bro!” I get the reason people respond that way, no doubt! But how people respond isn’t a good indicator of whether or not something is good or bad, light or dark, true or false. The majority is frustrated with me because I spoke up in opposition to the vote, with more words than Gordon Platt allotted. Rather than simply saying “No,” I voiced my concern that this was an excommunication. Another man voiced that this was in haste. Both arguments (excommunication/haste) expressed concern at the process underway. Nothing was said to injure anyone’s document, only a plea to continue working, until peace wins out. Both submitted to the voting process, but that was not enough. What was clear was, only four options for peace was going to be acceptable. The preferred option was to submit to the mind of the majority, letting the lots be published. The second option was for those who oppose to not oppose, indicating “non-dispute.” The third option was to say nothing more than a quiet “no.” None of these options provide room for something better, something more, or something else. For the majority, it was “My way or the highway!” The message to those not yet among us is: get in, sit down, and shut up! Vizzini, I don’t think “mutual agreement” means what you think it means!

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    Gordon Platt claimed to have a place where those who opposed could be heard and considered. Nothing of the sort was available. He confessed that this part was not his role, but someone else’s to deal with. According to the plan, this was where Paul Durham was supposed to step in, but that didn’t happen. In the absence of the promised process of hearing and considering those who opposed, people from the majority began to hover like vultures to a carcass, pecking at me. John Pratt, on of the witnesses and supporters of the lots document yelled at me, insisting that I had to listen to him. Others also insisted that they had the right to interrogate me, telling me I had to answer their questions. I told them all to “shut up!” I was submitting to Gordon Platt’s voting process, but he was saying nothing, allowing the vultures to peck. In the absence of the promised process, those who opposed were swatted down once again. I refused to speak to anyone else, until Gordon Platt did as he promised and provided room for me to be heard, or I would leave, unwilling to push my opinion on anyone else.

    We spoke in person. Gordon gave me the impression that we could work things out after the conference. Eight more people joined us, in a circle of ten. We heard on another’s opinions, even a young teenager was allowed to speak openly about his feelings of love and disappointment with the contention. I was pressed for an answer to how it might work, in my opinion. When I was cut off by McKay, things flared up for a minute, until he let me voice my part, and we were all given greater understanding.

    It wasn’t until there was a personal interaction, or an intimate setting of ten people, that any progress and understanding could be obtained. I make my point: a vote, in a mixed group of friends, acquaintances, and total strangers, naturally leads to a franchise mentality, that will inevitably lead to a hierarchy, producing bondage. We came from that. Let’s not repeat it. In a personal interaction, or an intimate setting of people, trust can grow, individuals have value, and bullies cannot claim a mass majority. Light should lead, not the louder voice. Intelligence should lead, not opinion polling and votes. The Spirit of God should lead, not the collective opinions of uncertain men.

    You claim to love one another, and so do I, so let’s not stop working out our differences. Let’s love our way through this. I honestly don’t trust those who fight to push the lots document, and for that I will not entertain your company right now. You feel battered, tired, and exhausted even. I get it. That’s ok. I’ve learned a lesson from my Dad that I’ll share with because it applies right now. He said it to my family, and I’ll say it to you: “Those who can carry more, should carry more! Those who cannot carry much, carry what you can. But, those who cannot carry anything, that’s ok, we’ll carry you!”

    I can carry more. Those who feel they have more to give, lets talk, I can use as much help as you can give. But those who aren’t able to carry any more of this burden, that’s ok, we’ll carry you! Ohana is family. God will not leave His family behind, and neither will I.

    Rob Adolpho

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    1. Froward - AND - filled with pride and vanity. The whole package! Some took it all when offered.

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    2. Rob Adolpho, I Love your soul. I was in that circle outside. You expressed your Love for the group so beautifully both at the conference and in your comments here in being willing to bear with us a little longer. But I still would like to beg you to bear with us a little longer. I have felt goodness in every single person I have met associated with this movement. In some I have felt overwhelming sincerity and goodness. You are one of those. I have hope in this group because I have confidence Christ is leading, guiding us, and teaching us. We'll make it. Hang in there brother.

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    3. At Anonymous: I would respectfully like to point out Rob's posts and yours. One accused. One did not. I don't know who you are but I have a feeling I Love you, so,

      Love, Jay

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    4. Rob, thank you for being a warrior. Thank you for speaking, especially for keeping things honest and out in the open. Too much hiding has gone on. Thank you for choosing not to pack your bags and leave on a guilt trip. Love to you and Q.

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    5. I, I, I, me, me, me. We have heard that worn out tune before. Moses 4:1

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    6. I’ve learned a lesson from my Dad:

      “And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a promise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you strip yourselves from jealousies and fears, and humble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble,”

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    7. "A friend is someone who knows the song in your heart, and can sing it back to you when you have forgotten the words."

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    8. Rob, thanks for sharing. I greatly appreciate your friendship and all you bring to “the movement.” Love you brother.

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    To: The Movement,

    Thanks for the kind comments made above. I also enjoyed the irony of really strong accusations, from someone calling themselves “ANONYMOUS” (tee-hee). I can be grateful for his/her (anonymous’) comments, and other comments that paint my response in a bad light, blaming me for dismissing the spirit. It gets me thinking how we failed to come together, trying to avoid repeating mistakes. Evaluating the event can provide more. I’ve learned not to short cut the micro-tearing process of muscle development, and work through it.

    Initially, mutual agreement alluded us. Then more was given that we must “…not dispute.” However, that has been used as a club, removing all individual rights to disagree, to be corralled like a herd of cows, by a “group think” herd mentality. A vote with a mixture of people (a few friends, more who were acquaintances, and a majority of strangers) kills the value of the individual, clumping them into a majority. What added to my frustration was when Denver addressed the value of the totem pole, the tiki, and the sculpture, pointing to the necessity for uniqueness to be protected and valued by us, …the majority, who rejected my opposition, …filled the air with a round of applause and hollering in support of the very thing they tried to crush!

    McKay Platt told me he saw only three options. The first was for the minority to go along with the majority. The second, more Polynesian he said, is for a leader to write it and the people follow him. The third is that we wait until we can all agree. I corrected him, telling him that the third was Polynesian, and that priests and hierarchy was introduced by colonists, and the influence of Tahitian’s, according our history. Prior to these influencers, “ho’o pono pono” was the Polynesian way. That means to council with one another as equals, providing a safe space to work through our difficulties, preserving the agency of the individual, and working to understand, no matter how long it took. Although McKay served his mission in Hawaii, he was quick to be corrected, and that provided room to continue the conversation. If I were to sum the three options, it would be: a franchise/ a dictator/ and a people. But being a people isn’t as easy as people think.

    Perhaps more clarity about mutual agreement, to add to not choosing to dispute, can include: a law that each individual is willing to govern themselves by (not a law to enforce upon others). According to “All or Nothing,” a government of no government is the only option for Zion. That means people must agree to govern ONLY themselves. And that fits well with the responsibility to persuade. Persuasion can only occur in an agreement between a teacher and a learner, whether as individuals or as a group, both roles governing themselves. If either are not willing to conform to self-governance, persuasion cannot occur.

    The introduction of greater light or greater understanding must only come through persuasion. However, greater light and knowledge can only be given to a people who self-select, self-enforce, and are self-governed. Those among this movement represent a degree of self-governed people. Because we were able to govern ourselves to a certain degree, more light was given than we have the ability to consume, fulfilling the prophecy of tithes and offerings, because we can see that God has poured out more blessing than we are currently able to receive. I propose that the degree of our self-governance is the degree of our ability to receive more light.

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  17. 2 of 2

    An attack on self-governance, by external enforcement, threatens and shrinks our ability to receive more, both as individuals and as a collective. Couples suffer, despite good intentions, unable to live within the same Governing Principles, and divorce. Parents have lost children, depending on external enforced discipline methods that atrophy self-governance, only to loose their children when they are of age, to their newly found freedom as adults. Even we, as a community of high level, revelation receiving, self-motivated people, …we suffer when we use methods of votes, majorities, statistics, percentages, opinion polling, campaigning, marketing to rule over another. Despite the good intention, and the scriptural background in support of your intention, it is wrong to govern another. It cannot become Zion.

    Conclusion: A government with no government requires its citizens to be self-governed. The success of the Governing Principles project must be mutually agreeable. When it is written and represents the potential of the words and the understanding that can produce the fruits of a community of the family of God, none will dispute it, all will be self-governed, …and then it will be mutually agreeable. When it is, we will not only need to adopt it as a guide and standard, …God will prove us against it, expecting sweet fruit, or we will be burned with the rest of the vineyard.

    The Lots document does not represent that for me. Interestingly enough, although I have avoided an online confrontation with Jared Livesay about his document (Doctrine/ Law of Christ), it seems as if greater light has far greater growth potential in the Doctrine/ Law of Christ, as the giver of all light is the source of that Doctrine & Law. The concepts of celestial light in the King Follet Discourse has greater growth potential within the Doctrine & Law of Christ. Although Jared’s online personality doesn’t provide popular allure of vanity, elitism, and cliques, …the principle is sound. If this project can produce a people who are self-governed, where light can increase and fill us all, then we will be prepared to do more. Otherwise, …well, …you know!

    Among those fighting lo “this document,” lo “that document,” …I throw out: lo “lets keep working because our relationships, while difficult, are getting much deeper/stronger/more valuable.” More is being given through the difficulty of relationships that have gone undervalued in apostasy. I feel a second wind, and it’s not gas. Let’s gather us as lost sheep before seeking out the remnant lost sheep. For we are surely lost if we fail to be mutually agreeable. I have not doubt that among us is the family of God. Let’s act like it!

    Mahalo Ke Akua,

    Rob Adolpho

    PS: Man up anonymous! You cannot learn anything hiding in the shadows, unwilling to put yourself into question, engaging using strong words, yet cowering from accountability. Join the mix, carry some of the load, owning your words, and engage in this difficult, blood boiling, adrenaline pumping, anxiously engaging in a good cause exchange

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    Replies
    1. I hate to pop your testosterone tantrum and not “man up” for you. That would be a bit difficult since I’m not equipped that way if you catch my drift. I tend more to the wisdom side. Sorry, no “manning up” and fighting like men to be done here. One person being a danger to the universe is enough. I would prefer harmless as a dove.

      If you really believed your own words, “we surely are lost if we fail to be mutually agrreable,” you would not be one of a small handful who do not mutually agree.
      You have been froward and argumentstive from the beginning.

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    2. Anonymous,

      Sorry for mislabeling your gender, I get that you are a woman, and women ought to be treated differently than head butting men. Please forgive me for assuming incorrectly. It's difficult for me to speak openly to women, as I tend to treat them like men. I come from a family of seven boys and five girls, and our girls are really tough girls. The kind that make men quiver, not because of their size, but because of their savage-like toughness. Being raised in that environment can really mess with your expectation. I will work on changing how I treat you, if only out of respect toward Wisdom. E kala mai ia'u (Please excuse/forgive).

      I am grateful for being raised with tough sisters and brothers, as they have shaped who I married. My wife asked why I married her. I said, "Next to the fact that you're drop dead gorgeous, I married you because you're tough!" You can see her savage-like qualities coming out below, and to me, that's why I married her.

      Concerning my frowardness, I can see how you would see me as froward and argumentative from the beginning. When Denver introduced that word, I knew I qualified. I didn't know until he said it, but it's pretty obvious that it applies to some of the things I've done, and some of the things I am doing right now. It's such a new concept to me that it's going to take a little bit for me to make the change.

      While frowardness is certainly going to be my focus now, I don't think that having a different opinion and opposing necessarily qualifies as froward. Again, I'm new to the word, so I could possibly be wrong. But I don't think I am, and am more than willing to be corrected.

      I'm sorry I have offended. I'm turning a new leaf once again. I could use a pinch of patience as I transition.

      Mahalo,

      Rob Adolpho

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  18. Anonymous,
    Then "Woman" up. You don't have to be a man to have courage enough to stand by your own words.
    Q

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  19. Rob,

    I agree in principle with the female anonymous above, regarding that we ought not be froward. If we could put away our froward and decide to agree (or at least not disagree/dispute) on a document (the lots document is 95%+ the consensus), then we can see if the Lord will accept it. If He won’t then we all ought to go back to the drawing board and consider why it wasn’t accepted, and maybe the Lord will enlighten us with what the document yet lacks.

    Having said that, I’m not taking sides against you. I felt your heart in Phoenix and I know you are good and that you and your wife mean well. And I certainly don’t want to exclude or factor you out of anything going forward. Regarding Jared, if taking the covenant is one of the biggest regrets of his life, which he stated somewhere on this site, then I’m fairly certain the Lord will forgive him of his mistake and allow him out of the covenant or rather consider him not part of it (the Lord does not compel us). Since Denver can not participate in this tedious process, all he could offer us is Wisdom from above, and Her advice. The missing link I heard was that word “froward”. She hates the froward mouth. Without getting into a long discussion of what that meant, and point fingers at who is being and who isn’t being froward, we all should ask ourselves “am I being froward?” Are my heels dug in and immovable? Personally, I’m willing to concede for the sake of mutual agreement, but to ask 95-99% to all concede to the handful of dissenters is a little extreme and feels like the froward ones will have prevailed over those who chose not to be froward.

    I think that we ought to give the lots document an opportunity to be accepted or to fail, by submitting it to the Lord and seeing if it is acceptable to Him. If He does accept it, we can learn valuable things from the process it took to get there. If He doesn’t, then surely we will have more work to do and can more readily consider ideas from venues that we as a whole didn’t previously consider, or that we weren’t as open to consider since this process has disillusioned so many and frustrated those who thought their votes for acceptance mattered. I would be willing to bet that if you would agree to let this be taken to the Lord to see if He would accept it, then those who have felt distant toward you would open up tremendously to your ideas and viewpoints. Laying down our weapons will go a long way toward becoming one, and while this assignment was given us from the Lord, it doesn’t need to be perfect. Denver said that the world has been using an incomplete, imperfect bible for 2 millennia and we have still gotten the basic message, at least good enough for many to have found their way into Christ’s presence. It’s worth a shot isn’t it?

    Love you man,
    Devin

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  20. Devin,

    I think you are good and you mean well too.

    It sounds like you believe froward individuals are the ones that don’t agree with the Lots document or who aren’t willing to accede to the view of the majority. Dispute has been defined and accepted by the majority as being someone who disagrees in anyway. In order for me to NOT dispute, according to the definition of the majority I must put away my dialogue with God to accept the Lots document. I will not dispute with God and I will do what He requires of me. I suppose if I defined dispute the way the majority does, I would not even respond to you, as this has been the means in which people are choosing Not to dispute with me. I on the other hand believe when you ignore people or give them the silent treatment you are disputing with the person.

    Let me be clear, Rob and I are not stopping you from moving on. AND we don’t believe the document needs to be perfect. Go and ask God. No one has to concede to us. The only person anyone should concede to is God. Do what God is telling you and stop blaming us for stopping you, as if we have the power to stop the majority from moving on.

    Devin, we can still be friends even if we disagree. We can share what we have in common and leave our differences for polite disagreement. But what you are saying is to accede to your view and I will not. If that makes me froward, so be it. I don’t choose to govern myself with the Lots document, but you can. Submit it to the Lord, scream from the tops of your houses that this is the document you want to be governed by, that is your choice. Everyone must choose. When I stand before God, I am willing to be accountable for my actions.

    Take Care, Q

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  21. Q,

    I appreciate your response and your insight as well. I have learned a lot from you and Robs viewpoints. I hope to see the day in Zion when we have all this behind us and can look back and realize how little we knew as compared to how far we’ve come. I know there’s still a lot to learn and I’m trying my best to be open to learning whatever is needed to get there.

    The concession I’m willing to give in this matter is to achieve harmony or agreement. I think that by and large those of us who have accepted the covenant have good motives and intentions and want to progress toward Zion. For this reason I have hope that we can come to mutual agreement and present some document to the Lord that didn’t become the document by coercion, manipulation, somebody’s holdout or by bullying. I want it to be that we can individually and collectively take a step back and consider that being agreeable and cooperative is far more important and Zionlike than to be right or to get our way. This document can only be so good, it can’t be perfect because it’s coming from imperfect people. I hope that we can look past the things that divide us or make us different from one another and choose to focus on the things that we have in common.

    Thank you for your voice and wisdom and for Rob’s knowledge. You make a great team and I am so grateful to know you and to consider you my friends.

    Sincerely,
    Devin

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