Thursday, March 22, 2018

Explaining Upcoming Voting

Folks,

We were asked for the wording of the vote that will take place at the Phoenix conference so that people can know what to expect and how to prepare. This is how we plan to proceed on Saturday.

SATURDAY VOTING

Jeanene Custer and John Pratt will stand as our two witnesses today, so that we may follow Paul’s injunction regarding witnesses, and they will confirm, if they are able, which Guide and Standard is preferred by conference attendees as determined by a voice vote. If our witnesses cannot agree on which Guide and Standard is preferred by the assembly, then the vote comes to an end and the matter will be tabled until the next conference.  If they are able to determine a clear majority preference, then in the second half of the vote today the witnesses will also tell us if they believe the conference has produced a large majority that are agreed on a statement of principles.

Several of the Guides and Standards that have received the most support, as determined by earlier online votes & efforts, have been selected randomly by the witnesses so that the order of the voting is impartial.  These Guides and Standards will be presented individually for votes by the conference.  In the interest of time all other Guides and Standards that have received less support over the last year will initially be voted on as a group.  If the “”all others “group receives the most votes then the group will be divided into its constituent Guides and Standards, and they will be voted on individually

We ask everyone to please vote for only one document.  If you do not prefer any of the documents, there is no need to vote for a document.  You will still be able to vote to support or oppose the majority’s choice.  If you oppose the majority’s choice, or if you oppose the vote itself you will be given an opportunity to register your opposition.  We will now proceed with the voting.

All of you who favor the “lots” Guide and Standard, the one produced by the seven individuals chosen by lots, please say “yes.”  Thank you.

All of you who favor the August 5 Guide and Standard, the one produced by Jeff Savage and his committee, please say “yes.” Thank you.

All of you who favor the NONMANCAAF SWHAFUGS Guide and Standard, the one produced by Kelly and Troy Erickson, please say “yes.” Thank you.

All of you who favor the Rock of Jesus Christ, the one produced by Jared Livesley, as our Guide and Standard, please say “yes.”

ETC…

All of you who favor a document other than the ones that have been named and voted on so far, please say “other.”  Thank you.

If you object to this process, or think that the vote is illegitimate, please say “no.”  Thank you.

Let’s ask our witnesses to come up.  Was there a clear majority preference for one of the Guides and Standards, and if so which was it?

Witnesses speak.

1-if there is no clear majority, the vote comes to an end.
2-If there is a clear majority, we will proceed with the second half of the vote.

SECOND HALF OF THE SATURDAY VOTE. 

We will ask you to stand at one point for this part of the vote in order that the folks viewing on line can get a better sense of what’s happening.  Once again, if you object to this vote, or to the outcome of the vote, you will be given a chance to make that known.

We will now proceed with the voting.

If you voted for the majority’s choice, or if you preferred a different document but you are willing to accept the majority’s choice.  Or, if you had no preference for any of the Guides and Standards, but you are willing to accept the majority’s choice, if you are in any of those three groups, please stand.  If you that are standing are agreed on the _____________________ statement of principles as our Guide and Standard, please say “yes.”  Thank you.  Please be seated.


If you do not or cannot agree to accept the majority’s choice, or if you are opposed to this vote, if you are in either of those two groups, please stand.  If you that are standing do not or cannot accept the majority’s choice, or if you object to this vote, please say “no.”  Thank you.  Please be seated.

Let’s ask our witnesses to come and tell us if they believe that we as a conference have produced a large majority that have agreed on a statement of principles.

WITNESSES SPEAK

1- If the witness do not believe that the conference has shown that they are in agreement on a statement of principles, then the vote comes to an end.
2- If the witnesses believe that the conference has produced a large majority who agreed on a statement of principles, then we will proceed with the vote on Sunday.

We invite any who may be opposed to the outcome of this vote or who object to the vote itself, who would like to make their concerns known, to meet with us immediately after this meeting.  


SUNDAY VOTING

Folks, after meeting with those who were opposed to the majority’s preference for Guide and Standard, we can report that there remain (a number) in opposition to the majority’s choice, and (a number) who are opposed to the vote itself.  We now have a choice.  Do you at this conference wish to proceed and adopt the __________________ document as our Guide and Standard, knowing that there remain (a number) in opposition, who have made their opposition known?  The vote does not of course presume to show the preference of any that are not in attendance here today, or to decide anything for them.  But a vote by the conference could be an expression of unity, and hopefully a foundation to build on.

Donald and Christy Danner will act as our witnesses today and will tell us if they believe the conference has produced a large majority that are in favor of adopting the _____________________ document as our Guide and Standard.

Once again we will ask you to stand at one point so that the folks on line can get a better idea of what is happening.  We will now finish the voting.  

Will all of you that want to proceed and adopt the _________________________ document as our Guide and Standard please stand.  If you that are standing are in agreement that we should adopt the _______________________ document as our Guide and Standard, please say “yes.”  Thank you. Please be seated.

Will all of you that oppose adopting the ________________ document as our guide and standard, or oppose the vote itself, please stand.  If you that are standing do not or cannot agree to adopt the ________________________ document as our Guide and Standard, or if you object to the vote, please say “no.”  Thank you.  Please be seated.

We will now ask our witnesses to come up and tell us if in their view the conference has produced a large majority that are agreed to the ________________________ statement of principles to use as our Guide and Standard.

WITNESSES SPEAK

The scriptures committee has recused itself from further involvement with the Guide and Standard, so there is no avenue currently open for publishing the Guide and Standard as a part of our scriptures.  But, here are the Lord’s words describing our assignment: “When you have an agreed statement of principles I require it to also be added as a guide and standard for my people to follow.”   The Lord does not use the words “print” or “publish,” He said add.  
Depending on what you think about todays vote, you may decide that we do indeed you have “an agreed statement of principles.” And, if we do then, after prayerful consideration, you might determine that you can add a copy of the ____________________ document to your own personal set of scriptures, in compliance with the Lord’s command.  And if you feel that unanimity is required before we can claim to have an agreed statement of principles, then of course you are free to pursue that goal.  It is a worthy goal.

We thank you for participating in this vote.  

Jeanene Custer
Donald and Christy Danner
Gordon Platt
Rebecca Wolford
Others

35 comments:

  1. Beloved Enos.... pg 33-34

    "His relationship with the Lord resulted from his charity towards others, including his enemies. Doctrine is always less important than a person's character. Although you may have a deep understanding of doctrine, if you lack charity towards others your understanding will be of no benefit."

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  2. THIS VOTE WILL DEFINITELY CREATE A DIVISION ("US" vs. "THEM") BETWEEN PEOPLE. I AM THEREFORE SPEAKING OUT AGAINST IT HERE AS I WILL NOT BE IN ARIZONA.

    Perhaps the reason that the “vote” idea is being pushed so hard is that there is an element within this movement of people who WANT a “natural separation” or “division”. I would hope not. But I cannot think of any reason to move forward with a “voice vote”...knowing that it would naturally cause an “US” versus “THEM” separation to take place.

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    1. Chris,

      Absolutely no one in the group that proposed this vote has ANY interest in causing division. Nothing has been said on line or in private by anyone In this group that hopes or agitates for division. Exactly the opposite, we are trying to help the assembly come together in unity. I promise you the suggestion you made in not true. Can you give us the benefit of the doubt?

      Now perhaps you do know with certainty that the vote will create an us vs. them situation. But I don't know that. We've thought long and hard about how to find unity among folks that have such strong and varied opinions. We think it is very possible that this vote can work. And we believe that the people in this movement have good hearts and will choose to sacrifice for each other rather than fight each other.

      We understand that some believe this vote is not the best way forward. Can you give it a chance? Are you really so certain that it will fail? Your speculation about our motivation was dead wrong. Is it possible that you could be wrong about the vote causing division too?

      Gordon

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  3. As one who has been a part of this movement from the beginning I have seen the shift in teaching the Doctrine of Christ and receiving your Second Comforter. Now the Second Comforter is rarely, if ever, mentioned and new agenda's cloaked as unspoken 'doctrine' (new scriptures and covenant required to avoid destruction) are pushed exclusively. We speak of the importance of the "new and improved, more correct and better than any other" scriptures (better quickly forget the fact that the "regular" scriptures did just fine for Denver to access the heavens). We have shifted from getting your covenant straight from the Lord, to the importance of taking a covenant as a group (better ignore that there are no scriptures anywhere which say God requires this group covenant).

    This group is struggling because more (or less) than the Doctrine of Christ 3 Nephi 11:40 is being preached. If you don't subscribe to the shift (over 2000 were on record for baptism...with how many actually taking the covenant or even voting on the G&S...?), you are now treated just like you were when you were LDS and getting excommunicated. "If you're not with us - you're against us". If you are a minority and you raise your hand (or type a message) with a dissenting view - you are quickly dismissed as a non-believer, shut down and mocked.

    You have become the very thing in the LDS church that you abhorred. You were disgusted at how vague the brethren were about seeing Christ. Well, how clear is Denver? Do you know the last time Denver saw Christ face to face? Has he only seen Him once? Twice - how often...do you know? Or have you stopped caring because it doesn't matter because you know with every fiber of your being that President Nelson is a true prophet...excuse me, Denver is. I mean David. Has Stephanie received Christ? Did you know if you ask Denver he will tell you it's too sacred to talk about and that question should not be asked? I have a copy of an email where he was asked that very question and here is his response:

    This is nobody's business. Neither of us has any interest in putting information into public view that is best left as something to be contemplated in the heart.

    -Denver & Stephanie Snuffer

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    1. Part 2:

      How is this any different than the LDS hierarchy's response?!! How is it abominable for LDS leaders to speak in this way yet perfectly justifiable for Denver to do the same? Will you continue to be so blind in your hearts and minds? Denver says he is David and when you ask if he's the servant - will he answer you?! You call him David in your gatherings and to his face - he does not stop or correct you! He and you have created a cult around your hopes and desires for a servant and Zion. But you are not Zion. And you have stopped your search for your Second Comforter believing it just happens to people like David and you'd just better hope and pray that Denver/David is receiving a covenant for you so you can get your foot in the door somehow since you were unwilling to go up the Holy Mount yourself.

      What did you get with this covenant? Greater blessings or cursings? Greater peace or greater contention? Is your fruit similar to the saints in Nauvoo or like King Benjamin's people? The fruit of this covenant has revealed the source from whence it came. When will you choose to see it? When will you choose to awake and arise and go forth to meet YOUR Bridegroom? He is calling after you. As one who heard the covenant and felt in my heart and soul this direction wasn't right - I walked away. I left all of you whom I knew and loved and felt secure with. I went out on the limb and found the fruit. I sought the Lord for myself and now I can say, I have found HIM. I have touched the nail marks in his hands, and feet, and side. And I come back to say - seek HIM. Seek Him. You have stayed where it is safe. With the majority. Get out of the boat - walk on water. If you seek Him first all things shall be added unto you. I so testify. In the name, of Jesus Christ.

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    2. Anonymous - you should probably put your "Denver and Stephanie" email quote in quotation marks because on first glance, it looks as if you are Denver and Stephanie posting on this forum. I don't think you intended that, but that's what it looks like.

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    4. Anonymous
      “Individuals can and do obtain hope in Christ. Individuals have been “saved” by the Lord on an individual basis from the time of Adam until the present. That will continue till the end of time.
      But there is a profound difference between saved individuals and a covenant people. The covenant promises to restore Israel and its remnants contained in the Book of Mormon is not fulfilled merely by individuals, but requires a covenant people who have united to receive the covenant people status.
      Zion and the New Jerusalem are a place, occupied by covenant people, and not something an individual can be or become. People who gather there will all need to be individually redeemed, individually penitent, individually connected to God, but will only belong to the community if they belong to the covenant and are of one heart and one mind and have all things in common between and among them.
      If you think becoming one with God, whom you have not seen, is challenging, then how much more difficult will it be to become one with your fellow man whom you have seen. (To paraphrase James.)” From Denver’s Blog (Covenant April 6 2017)
      Read this carefully, it will explain most of your concerns. The INDIVIDUAL work is a personal journey at which at some point TALKING about it is not helpful. The work to be done as a COVENANT PEOPLE, on the other hand requires obvious interaction.

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    5. Also, Anonymous
      This is the area where discussion concerning the G&S is taking place. You’ll find if you read the comments in the papers sports section they’re mostly about sports, that rule applies here also. And to pass judgment that no one here has received their own covenant from the Lord regarding their own Salvation is not representative of one of His disciples nor is it true.

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  4. I support this proposal and vote.

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  5. I support this proposal and vote as well.

    To the anonymous stone thrower above, the fruit your words bear leave me doubting your claim of having seen Christ. Every instance (that I’ve heard or read about) of anyone having seen Christ always leaves that person with more love for humanity, not vitriol and disgust at ones fellow Christ-seekers. You misjudge our hearts and motives and those are not actions or words that the Lord (or one who has truly seen him) would speak to a group of people seeking their Savior. You’ve already said you felt the covenant was not from the Lord, so why don’t you leave us in peace and allow us to seek the Lord our way.

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  6. If the spirit tells me that the voting process creates division, and I seek the unity that Christ admonishes us to seek in the A&C, then wouldn't it offend the spirit for me to participate in it?

    How will my silence be counted?

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    1. Voting doesn't create division, light and dark does. Aligning ourselves with light is how we qualify for Zion. Voting is excercizing our free agency to choose between the two. Both light and darkness have been demonstrated in our exchanges. A discerning eye can see and choose light by voice. Our ability to discern and choose light divides us and rightly so.
      May we unify with the light.
      Love, Lisa
      I support the vote and appreciate those willing to help us progress. Wish I could be there to make my voice heard. What time will the voting take place and will it be on live internet? Thank you!

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  8. The actions of the majority seem to suggest that they are united in the theory of utilitarianism: Giving up some truth for the overall happiness or unity of the group. It seems, unity to you means making the same decision: In this case, saying yes to the Lots document is being pitched as unity. I suppose if I believed that utilitarianism is what the Lord wanted and I suppose if I defined unity the way you do, I would support this vote. I define unity as becoming one with the Lord first and by doing so, naturally I will be united with all of His creations.

    As you might have guessed, I don’t choose the Lots document for my guide and standard, and Lisa can believe that is me choosing dark, that’s ok. I am at peace with the majority moving forward as I stand still waiting to be directed by the Lord. I wish you well. I for one will continue to work towards developing a relationship with the Lord first and then hopefully I will find mutual agreement along my journey. Lori, can I join you on your island? Will you make the island with white sandy beaches and palm trees, if you do, I will bring fry bread, choke cherry soup, and pemmican; Rob is Mr. International so he can bring, Hawaiian, Chinese, Spanish and Swedish food; Shane and Treas can bring Samoan, Hawaiian, Chinese and Fijian food. Chandlers you want to bring some Tongan food? :)
    Q

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    1. Absolutely! Beginning to sound like a feast to me! We'll also bring Indian and Persian food with the Takmili's and Singh's :)

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    2. Haha, I would love for you to join me. :) White sand and palm trees all the way! I offer myself and my family up as the clean-up crew cause I am just an okay cook, although the husband is a cookie-making master so I'll volunteer him as cookie tribute. But I know how to clean up afterwards! Mmm, mmm, mmm.

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    3. Yes Q,
      Becoming one with the Lord is the right approach to take. Until we do, there will be division. We may always have a difference of opinion, but if our choices were guided by the Lord’s will, we would necessarily choose the same thing, whether we wanted to or not. I have learned from experience, my will is hardly ever what the Lord’s will is, however I choose His, no matter what I want to do, or what I think is best. I don’t know the future, He does. I yield to Him. I yearn for the day that we can see eye to eye. There is quite a bit of separation in the scriptures. Separation is a necessary part of the process. We cannot prevent it, whether we vote or not, whether we continue to seek the better part or not. We will always find someone who still thinks we need to do something else, approach it differently, wait longer, etc. It will never end, and we won’t complete the work asked of us. The longer we draw out the process, the more different directions we go in. How many versions of the G&S do we have now, wait another 6 months and the versions will double. We all believe we know better, we have a better product, we have more experience, we know how it should be done. We have a small window of opportunity here. I pray we take advantage of it. I don’t even care which G&S you all choose. I will receive it, whatever it is. I prefer one over the others, but I wouldn’t lose my opportunity to participate in this great work over a few petty differences. We should all feel this way. I hope the Spirit is so strong in the meetings that the right choice will be evident, hearts will be softened and love will prevail. I am praying for you guys! Love, Lisa

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  9. It seems that now the dispute has evolved to be more about the process of "voting" or rather the process to understand what the beliefs, feelings, or opinions of the group as a whole.

    This is confusing to me. There has to be some method of measurement to be able to understand the level of "mutual agreement." Voting seems to be the only realistic method that we have. How we do the vote is another story. Which also seems to be a big part of our disputes. Most of the voting up to this point has been anonymous but done through digital means on the internet, which some seem to have issues with it not being inclusive enough. Other's want a live vote in person, yet this too is not inclusive.

    There are others that are proposing an alternate method, which to me, seems even more unrealistic and FAR less inclusive, and WAY WAY WAY more unreliable of a way to measure the level of "mutual agreement." That method, is to get together in a room and just talk about it. And after we are done reasoning amongst ourselves and given the opportunity to persuade one another that we will some how be able to come to a "mutual agreement." The problem with this, is that it is impossible for such a thing to happen at the size of a group that we have. Also the movement is too spread out for this to even be realistic. Nothing about this idea makes any sense at all. You can use that method in a very small group of people.

    This problem is the same problem with "focus groups." There are FAR too many biases introduced. A very small percentage of people, with a specific personality type, will dominate the conversation. The effects that large groups of people have on people vary depending on the type of person. When these people are strangers, the ability to create a safe space for open thoughts is also VERY VERY highly unlikely to be accomplished.

    I also agree that comment threads on a blog post are also not the way to go either. It also presents it's own limitations and problems. So this blog, is also not working. The forum that was used before also doesn't work.

    We definitely have a communication problem.

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    1. But I think if we don't have a "heart problem" then communication can be worked out. I agree that blog posts and commenting has not been the best means, but it is what it is. Blogs are great for information dissemination, but figuring out challenges...not so much.

      I also wonder if we are just not trusting in Christ to work with, in, and through us. Do we underestimate Him and what He can accomplish when we get our own ideas out of the way? Maybe.

      I think the division at this point is not so much about process, though surely it is part, as much as some of us feel to be still and wait on Christ to let us know a way forward over voting again, and again, and again.

      But I respect the desire for others to get a more solid consensus through voting. I can offer not to dispute, and let others do as they wish with that, but I think it still does not get us where I believe we all truly desire to be.

      As long as we can work to maintain love in our hearts for each other, there is still hope.

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  10. @Gordon – thanks for your thoughtful response and questions.

    I am not “certain that [voting] will fail”. In fact, quite the opposite, I believe voting will SUCCEED…SPECTACULARLY. However, it just will NOT produce the desired OUTCOME that you hope.

    It will succeed in creating more division, strife, and separation. Voting, by its very nature, is intended to create a winner and a loser.

    No, I will not give voting another chance. It is an illegitimate system that imposes the will of a majority upon a minority. It does not create equality. It creates inequality and a power base among people, no matter how good people’s “intentions” are.

    I am willing to continue to work with everyone in this movement who is willing to continue to seek God’s part in the matter…FOR HOWEVER LONG IT TAKES until we obtain revelation from God about what He wants in the document – not our assumptions of what should be in it.

    Christ says this would be a “light thing” if our “hearts were right”. He says it twice in fact! We have all ASSUMED our hearts have been “right” and that – it’s just those “other guys” whose hearts are not right that are holding us back from getting this done – instead of realizing that He just softly pronounced judgment on us ALL. I am repenting and assume he was talking to me and telling me my heart wasn’t right. I’m working on trying to get my heart right first.

    Rob A. is correct in his assessment of our Gentile desire for efficiency – “Get ‘er done” – and unwillingness to work with each other any longer than is necessary to slap together a hodge-podge of great quotes from Denver and say, “It’s done. It’s enough.” Jesus is not a Gentile. He is trying to teach of something of what heaven is and should be like in the A&C – it’s about light and knowledge and our relationships with each other.

    For sure, the assignment needs to get done, but I am with Sam Vaughn’s suggestion that we take Christ at His word and keep working together and seeking “His part”. That, unfortunately, has NOT been tried. Why don’t we try that? Christ never said in the A&C to come to mutual agreement by voting, but He did say if we had a dispute to pray to Him in humility together and present our dispute to Him, then IF WE ARE CONTRITE BEFORE HIM He will tell us His part. I know He is telling the truth, because I have tried it with my wife and it works!!!

    If it can work for a couple, could it not work for more? Do we actually believe Him? If so, then why can’t we try that instead of voting? I realize that it will require more time, effort, and concentration on our part than just voting, but at least WE WILL HAVE KNOWLEDGE FROM GOD. His instruction is clear.

    I don’t pretend to have all the answers, but one thing I know, we have voted (ad nauseum) since the beginning of this process last year. It has not created anything but irritability, campaigning, and an “us” vs. “them” mentality already. I have seen the ALL the different iterations we’ve gone through. Everybody’s “intentions” and “motivations” have been good. Even I originally thought voting was the way to go. I have changed my mind. Now, with all due respect, you are asking me to “give [voting] a chance”. Sorry. No.

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    1. Good thoughts. I agree with you Chris.

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  11. To be clear:
    1. The Nonmancaaf Swhafugs means - “Non Opposing, No Marketing Added, Non Compulsory, All Are Free. Simply What He Asked From Us G&S.” This is a true statement, not just a funny title.
    2. We did not ask to be a part of this vote. We were approached about wether or not we wanted to nominate this document; we did not. Whoever nominated it did that of their own free will. All are free to act with this Guide and Standard according to the dictates of their own conscience. Its only possible compulsion would have to be by oneself upon ones same self. We have accepted it and by that others may know to what standard we hold ourselves.
    3. Our names have been associated with this Guide and Standard, we accept that, but it would be a mistake to think we are the only ones who labored over it, which is why it is published by ‘anonymous’ as none of us merit any credit. The attachment of our name is so others may have someone to blame for any mistakes.
    4. We reject any notion that would cause even the perception that this Guide and Standard could, should, or is being offered un-equally in comparison to any other. If God is no respector of persons then how could we be. The merit ought to be in the light and truth contained and the process by which it is obtained, nothing else ought compel.

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  12. 1 of 2

    To: The Movement

    If we are indeed the stone cut out of the mountains without hands (and I am certain we are), then the influence of the kingdoms of the earth must be ground to dust within us, before it grinds to dust the statue in King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Our relationships, if they are to be familiar and desirable to those in the heavens, then our current relationships must reflect the relationships of people in heaven. Although dialogue seems tedious, unproductive, inefficient, and requires too much investment in time, resource, and emotional capital, …it’s absence, enduring through issues, and acquiring greater light to resolve issues is the source of our problems.

    I am certain that this movement is the stone cut without hands prophesied of over 500 years before Christ’s day (2,500 years ago). That stone was prophesied of to grind the spiritual and physical institutional kingdoms of the earth to dust. To understand what that means is beneficial to us as we work through this project. The kingdoms of the earth reside in the desires our hearts. Gold representing Babylon, and silver, brass, iron, and a mixture of iron & clay, representing other influences. The stone cut without hands is Zion, and it is cut by the words of the Lord, as it is His work to gather and build Zion. None of us have ever been there, and for this reason, our efforts to draw up blueprints and break ground on Zion, from our understanding, will be a failed attempt, …unless it is directed by the Lord’s voice alone. Nephi’s ship was an example of this future effort of the stone cut without hands, as it was the Lord’s voice who instructed Nephi to construct it. However, before that stone can be cut out of the mountain to roll forth and grind the kingdoms of the earth to dust, it must first be ground to dust in us!

    The current effort to produce a vote is accurately a choice, as Lisa has indicated in her comment above to my wife Q. The best option between light and dark is to align with light, which is another truth Lisa added. What she labels as light and what she labels as dark is how she must be judged. Likewise, what we all label as light and dark will not make it so, it will only identify your ability to discern, and judge you. Therefore, how you judge shall be how you are judged. Those who call light “dark” are simply damned, unable to move forward in progression to more light, because of their error. Those who call dark “light” are not only damned, but cursed for their rebellion, chained to hell.

    Given the situation, where the majority have exercised their agency to collectively force a scenario of a vote today, their choice forces the whole to judge between light and dark. But the choice of light verses dark is not limited to a choice between documents. It also includes a choice to vote or oppose, a choice to continue working when not mutually agreeable or to discontinue and move on, a choice to not only say that your love is stronger than the chords of death, but love stronger than the chords of death through your actions. To isolate the choices here to a choice between documents is to be darkened in your minds, not understanding what is before us, produced by our own doing.

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  13. 2 of 2

    The argument to support the majority no-vote-vote today has used words in Mosiah 29:26-27 as justification to move ahead against the few who desire to continue until peace wins out. Their argument is weak as they have justified “COMMON” as an absolute in this case. Mosiah wrote that it is “COMMON” that the majority chooses right, while the minority chooses not right. However, this is not absolute, it is merely common. However, verse 27 “IS” absolute! It says, when the time comes that the majority chooses iniquity (gross inequality and unfair behavior) the judgments of God will come upon you. It continues to warn that then is the time where He will visit you with great destruction, as He always has. Interestingly enough, Mosiah never addresses the destruction of the minority. He only describes the destruction of the majority. You are required to choose between light and dark today. The choice of a no-vote-vote is forced upon this movement today, by those who claim the majority. How you, and each of you choose to exercise your agency to align with light or dark is your choice to make, …and it is also how you choose to be judged. I vote in opposition to group think, to continue working, to be the stone cut without hands, having had ground to dust the kingdom of the earth within me, and to go forth to do the same, until that stone fills the entire earth.

    Our relationships, if they are to be familiar and desirable to those in the heavens, then our current relationships must reflect the relationships of people in heaven. Nibley, in his book “Enoch the Prophet” (pg 261), describes the relationships of people in heaven vividly. He writes:

    “There the saints live without discord or dissension; they are angelic beings, wise and gentle, without malice or deceit, constantly VISITING each other. They are VAST DISTANCES (my comment-no excuse for long distances) removed from each other, but through their common Lord and God they all share a common glorious awareness of each other. All are incorruptible and hence without death; they do not grow old or wear out; their nature is unfading. Their number is fixed it is infinite- beyond counting. Each of these worlds is a Zion, having no law courts, no hunger or thirst, no cold or heat, no hatred or fear, no war, no slavery, no harmful creatures or plants. Magnificent buildings stand beside tranquil seas; flowing springs give life- giving water. Everything vibrates with joy. The wants of the people are few. They move through the air by an effortless power of flight; they are at home in the firmaments and the worlds and among all the dominions and powers. Their beauty is within them and shines out, as if they were of pure crystal. Force also flows through them from the king as they open themselves to it by persevering in prayer and song. They study and meditate constantly; they exhale the fragrance of divine happiness. Each is more remarkable than the other, each more illustrious.”

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  14. Conclusion of 2 of 2

    Let’s be THAT! Let’s continue to work through our conversations, and let the love of God gather us, as wrestlers of the covenant, …as Israel! Let’s not use the excuse of long distances, as justification for our failure to be one, since Zion is a family of God, spanning the distances of the heavens, which include worlds without number, worlds without end. God has commanded us, and His commandments are a map to how this can be done, if we submit to Him, and not to other men. Let Him gather us out, instead of voting.

    Although dialogue among us seems tedious, unproductive, inefficient, and requires too much investment in time, resource, and emotional capital, …it’s absence, enduring through issues, and acquiring greater light to resolve issues is the source of our problems. We would prefer a quick vote to stop the contention, rather than for us to cast out contention from within us, so we can continue to work until being mutually agreeable and becoming the stone cut without hands. I do not desire to fix Jared Livesay, until he looks like me. Nor do I wish to look like him (I’ve never met him, but I like who I am, so why would I want to be him?). The only person I wish to be is Christ, and that describes a relationship.

    Man-up and choose according to your heart, and let that be how you are judged!

    Rob Adolpho

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  15. Master,

    I don't think you thought this one through very well.

    Yesterday was the pre-vote-non-vote-vote. To sum up the cheer fest, I wrestled to continue working, and the majority said, "We got spirit, yes we do! We got spirit, how about you!" I was clumped into a group that was labelled: Requiring Unanimity/ Seeking a Perfect Document/ who had an Unlimited Time Frame. Although that is how we were labeled, I have never claimed any of those things. I never required unanimity, only what the Lord requires of us, which is something I don't know yet. I never thought what would be written would be Perfect, but not being perfect should not be our aim. And, I never thought that there was an Unlimited Amount of Time, as I have been consumed by this since the work began after the last conference. It is a bad idea to pretend say one thing, and do another, so I have voiced my concerns for us to continue working, and not play games with this vote.

    People in the room have attributed my wife and my voice to squawking like black crows, injuring them as doves, ...narrating their stories by their emotions, ...when the problem was not "our opinions!" The problem was "our opinions" being put on blast because of the process forced upon everyone, by the man behind the microphone. Prior to entering the meeting, I gladly interacted with those attending, reuniting as friends at conference. What happened after the meeting was totally different.

    Immediately following, those who opposed were invited to the "back corner" of the room to talk things through. However, when I got to the back of the room, those who pushed the non-vote-vote had nothing prepared as they had promoted to have. Essentially, it was an unintentional set-up, placing me with a blindfold on, with an anti-Mormon sign, outside of the LDS conference center, during General Conference. I was being pecked by peckers, under the false pretenses that they were expressing "love!" I continuously turned to Gordon Platt to ask him, "Is this what you've planned to kindly hear-out those who opposed?" He stood dumbfounded, not knowing what to do, because just as I told him online here, he ...DID NOT THINK THIS THROUGH VERY WELL! As he was at a loss for words, he permitted those who were angry with my opinion to peck at me, amidst all of the conference people exiting. Even one of the witnesses, John Pratt, felt inclined to force his opinion on the proverbial blindfolded guy outside of the LDS General Conference with an anti-Mormon sign placed in his hand.

    When the only thing left for me to do is to shout, "Shut Up!" to the peckers, including John Pratt, Gordon finally asked if we could talk, just the two of us, I gladly accepted. It was in this personal setting, where two men could come to understand clearer. Later, the conversation between two slowly grew, and maxed out to about ten people, and greater understanding was had. Those in that small group were a mixture of those I knew, and strangers. They could feel the love I had. The situation placed in a franchise-vote conference was impossible for personal interaction, because in a franchise, discretion must be removed! However, in an ecclesia claiming to be Zion, individual discretion must be preserved.

    How you judge will be how you will be judged.

    Rob Adolpho

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  16. Rob,
    Far as I know, we aren't claiming to be Zion..
    I’m with your view on the ways of God and Zion are not our ways. What you want will obviously be a part in the ways of Zion…But Rob, we’re not Zion, let alone Zion people, yet. We CANNOT have get togethers like you just described on every decision right now. So, what happens now in our present condition and place? Just the people who can afford to get together in back room meetings like you described make the decisions? WHAT ABOUT THOSE "OTHER PEOPLE" ALL OVER THE WORLD?
    I think we are at a place where we ABSOLUTLY MUST agree on a “mechanism” for coming to decisions going forward that includes participation from people all over the world. We aren’t living together yet for your ideal to be realistic as we are currently situated. Although I’m with you in spirit, it just doesn’t seem practical until we are actually in Zion.

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  17. Folks,

    I’m sorry that we were unable to complete the vote for a guide and standard in the conference today. The organizers decided not to risk any more “audience participation,” and I get that (that is not meant to be snarky!). It’s their conference to organize; it’s their decision. But, let me suggest a couple of things that all of us were able to accomplish with our truncated vote.

    First, the “lots” guide and standard was pretty clearly the assembly’s preferred choice. That’s the second time that a fairly large number of people participated in a vote in which it came out on top. That is two “witnesses,” if you like, that it is the document that most prefer.

    Second, and more importantly, there were a considerable number of folks that preferred a different document but gave up their preference for the sake of unity (and no, I am not suggesting that if you did not support the “lots” document that you don’t also desire to be united). Voluntary sacrifice builds love. Thank you.

    Third, speaking only for myself, what I saw was a strong desire to come to mutual agreement. After our group talked to those that opposed the outcome/vote, I would estimate that no more than 8-10 people were in opposition to the “lots” G&S. That’s less than 5%. Others may have a different estimate, but that is my honest appraisal of the numbers.

    Fourth, after talking to the folks who were opposed to the “lots” document, I have more sympathy for their concerns. We have made plans to get together and continue to talk things through to see if we can develop greater love and understanding.

    Fifth, again speaking only for myself, at this point I feel at peace with adding the “lots” document to my own personal set of scriptures. I believe I saw the minority agree (out of love) with the majority on a statement of principles. In my estimation, that satisfies the Lord’s requirement.

    Sixth, perhaps the sacrifice of the minority “provoked” the Lord’s merciful implication, given through Denver, that each fellowship could decide for themselves how best to organize a statement of principles. “Do you want the fellowships in Uganda, the Philippines and Spain to all be alike? (rough paraphrase). Perhaps mutual agreement at the level of the fellowships is enough for now. After all, most everything else is happening at that level.

    Thanks to those who participated in the vote, and also to those who voiced alternate opinions. Thank heaven we don’t all think alike. Otherwise I’d have to go buy a bunch of white shirts again.

    Gordon

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    1. Gordon,

      Because of your comment above, after all that has happened today, I have changed my mind about meeting with you. I have no desire to have your sympathy. I have no desire to pretend with you, acting as if you care, when you are set on the results of your failed experiment. We have learned nothing new, the lots have the majority, and are set above all the other documents. They are the ones above the next.

      The next time you feel inclined to run another experiment like this one, make it clear that this is an "experiment," ...so I can avoid being the guy being probed!

      Rob Adolpho

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  18. Book recommendation, with love for all you guys:

    The Anatomy of Peace: Resolving the Heart of Conflict

    From chapter four: The Way-of Being Diagram

    Behaviors: (Voting)(Discussions)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
    Way of Being:

    Heart at Peace >> Others are PEOPLE: Hopes, needs, cares, and fears as real to me as my own.

    Heart at War >> Others are OBJECTS: Obstacles, Vehicles, Irrelevancies

    "I'm going to suggest something to you about this...It's an idea you might want to resist at first, especially regarding your children [others]. But here it is: Generally speaking, WE RESPOND TO OTHERS' WAY OF BEING TOWARD US RATHER THAN TO THEIR BEHAVIOR. Which is to say that our children [others] respond more to how we're regarding them than they do to our particular words or actions. WE CAN TREAT OUR CHILDREN [OTHERS] FAIRLY, for example, BUT IF OUR HEARTS ARE WARRING TOWARD THEM WHILE WE'RE DOING IT, THEY WON'T THINK THEY'RE BEING TREATED FAIRLY AT ALL. IN FACT, THEY'LL RESPOND TO US AS IF THEY WEREN'T BEING TREATED FAIRLY."

    "As important as behavior is, MOST PROBLEMS AT HOME, AT WORK, AND IN THE WORLD ARE NOT FAILURES OF STRATEGY BUT FAILURES OF WAY OF BEING. ...when our hearts are at war, we can't see situations clearly, we can't consider others' positions seriously enough to solve difficult problems, and we end up provoking hurtful behavior in others.

    "IF WE HAVE DEEP PROBLEMS, IT'S BECAUSE WE ARE FAILING AT THE DEEPEST PART OF THE SOLUTION. AND WHEN WE FAIL AT THIS DEEPEST LEVEL, WE INVITE OUR OWN FAILURE." (emphasis added)

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  19. Considering our current state of affairs, I am having a difficult time figuring out how we will ever agree totally. We were so close, probably as close as we will ever be. With Denver’s emphasis on differences in Fellowships, it seems he was saying we can all have our own brand of G&S. I was so pleased to see so many lay their own desires aside and vote to agree on the Lot’s G&S. I was so encouraged and optimistic until the fray started. The mood totally changed in the meeting. Gordon tried to maintain decorum without trying to control, but all feelings of love dissipated into strife and contention. I felt there was enough support behind the Lot’s verision that I should have no issue with including it in my scriptures. I am going to pray about it, and ensure I have the Lord’s blessing before doing so. I only see further disagreement from this point on. And apparently that is fine, disagree if you want, and just add your own G&S into your scriptures and use it in your own Fellowship if you wish. Our hearts will be the final judge, whether we were meek, easy to entreat, loving and supportive of each other. And I am very comfortable with that. This solution ends the disagreement and contention, at least it confines it to a fellowship level where it is more manageable. This seems to be the most viable solution at the moment. You are all free to continue to work however you see fit. If I am prompted to join in any efforts going forward I will. God bless you, until we gather at the river. :) Love, Lisa

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    1. I, too, feel a need to prayerfully consider things right now.

      In a way, the "solution" of every family or fellowship writing their own G&S and adding it to their scriptures seems good and right. But if that is true, then why did we as a whole struggle to see it that way for so long? Is that the "if your hearts were right" issue? We were unwilling to allow others to determine their version of a personal G&S?

      When Christ said He was speaking to us as "one" did He mean each one of us or the whole group together? Depending upon how that is interpreted will impact how we plan to move forward, I think. It probably determined what has happened thus far.

      The vote at the end of Saturday's session was hard to witness. I think I was okay with the first part, inviting everyone to choose their preferred statement, but it felt wrong to continue beyond that. So very wrong. There was definitely a spirit of contending felt just in doing a vote. Maybe that was just mine and my husband's perception though.

      If we are each able to choose or write our own statement of principles, there is no need to even know what a "majority" of people want, right?

      I can understand that it felt like there was contention, but from my perspective, as my husband and I sat watching, it appeared there was a room filled with people who lacked charity and compassion. I saw people standing alone. I was not okay with that, whether or not I agreed with them was irrelevant to me. The majority had many people to support them, but those few...who was willing to strengthen them and walk with them a mile? Who was willing to listen? It was in that moment I would have been willing to "submit" my desires, whatever they were, to help them. It would have been the ideal moment to humble myself, asking if we could all kneel and pray collectively yet individually for His part. That is how I wish it had gone.

      I believe everyone in that room contributed to the energy of the moment, either positively or negatively. That is also true for the entire covenant body and this process; we have all made contributions to the energy, the atmosphere if you will, whether we have commented openly or not. We cannot hide what is in our hearts. It seeps outward to touch the world.

      I feel a fierce love in my heart for this group. I want to fight for us, in prayer and supplications. I feel so weak and vulnerable, yet know we each have goodness and gifts to contribute that will benefit the whole.

      I don't know what will happen now, but I hope relationships can be healed, fences mended, bridges rebuilt. Hopefully we can leave the drama to Shakespeare now and learn to believe in each other as we seek Christ.

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