This space exists for the proposal and discussion of efforts to address the Lord's requirement for a statement of principles to be added to the scriptures.
Thank you for posting this. If anyone wants the version with the hyperlinks, you can find it here:https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1NVmWnZkzAFCtdpX3tHPvuz0AEZtQRnwqTkpc9LjqQ1s/edit?usp=sharing
Dani is Fawn Livesey (btw).
Fawn, dear sister, I LOVE the way in which you were guided to lay the matter out. My heart feels this is a Light thing. All the scriptures persuade me, I am edified and desire to do better. I accept with ThanksGiving.Eva
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Donald, your comment was cute, why did you remove it? Made me smile.
Sometimes I think I talk too much. :)
@ Donald... Honey and Vinegar mixed together are a powerful remedy for sickness! There's my deep contribution for today :)
Since his talk on Jan 14th I have thought a lot about this statement from Denver...Denver Snuffer talk Jan 14th, 2018 Minute 39:40–40:24 “Perhaps his most Godly example was the patience with which he dealt with those around him. Kindly, patiently, correcting them when they largely came to him with questions trying to trap him but affirmatively stating in the Sermon on the Mount how you can take any group of people and turn them into Zion itself, if we would live the Sermon on the Mount.”http://denversnuffer.net/resources/Clinton-Meeting-18.01.14.mp3
I am posting this here, because I believe it is the most logical place for Jared to see it. Jared writes on LatterDay Commentary, Tim Malone’s website, a long explanation of why he does not support any other G&S, but the Sermon on the Mount. He explains how he made a mistake in making the Covenant. He thought the Lord (Spirit) left him because he was following a man. And now he cannot get out of the Covenant he made. So he is on a campaign to keep any of Denver’s teachings out of the G&S. I think I know what Jared actually experienced.I think the issue when Jared thought he made a mistake in making the Covenant, or in following a man (Denver), was that he doubted his decision to make the Covenant, and then he feared he had made a mistake (fear is of the devil), then the Spirit abruptly left him. However, the Spirit was actually convicting him for rejecting the Lord’s true messenger (Denver), and he mistook it for being condemned by the Lord for following a man. I have seen it happen to people before. Once they reject the Lord’s true messenger they damn themselves, and cannot progress. That is my understanding of what happened to Jared. I am sorry for his situation. I hope others will not make the same misstep.I have lost some of the people I love most because of their rejection of Denver after his excommunication from the church. The light in them went out. Denver did say, something to the effect of: (that it would not be well to with those who reject the Lord’s true messengers). Rejecting the Lord’s true Servants is the same as rejecting Him. Not good! If we make a stance to not acknowledge the Lord’s Servant (Denver), we make a stance not to asknowledge the Lord. I doubt Jared will consider this idea, because those who fall into this snare become blinded and cannot see their own error. Those that follow this path become dogmatic in their views and end up fighting against Zion. I am not speaking evil of Jared, I’m just trying to explain what I believe really happened to him. I think accepting the Sermon on the Mount as a G&S on a premise of a mistaken Covenant and an effort to remove any of Denver’s teachings would not be a wise decision. However, we all have our free agency to choose. I am just making an observation based on what I have witnessed happened to others. The Spirit abruptly leaves them and they don’t know why, they just assume, and make the wrong assumption. They scramble to try and get the Spirit back, but they can’t if they don’t know why it left in the first place. I hope Jared will go back in his mind and give my synopsis some thoughtful consideration. Once you go down that path, it is hard to come back. Thanks!
I believe there is some truth to this - at least Denver has taught as much:"What if salvation is not determined by grace alone, by works alone, or even some combination of the two? What if it comes from the ministry of one sent by God to declare salvation? And faith comes by hearing the message like Paul taught (Rom. 10:17). Paul was expounding a passage from Isaiah (Isa. 53:1), a prophet sent by God. Paul was likewise sent with a message from God. What if the meaning is that in order to receive salvation it is essential that the believer receive a message from a minister actually sent by God with a message for our day and time?"What if salvation requires the same thing now as when Isaiah preached and prophesied, and when Paul taught, and when Christ ministered to mankind?"What if there is a necessary relationship between the sender of a message (God) and the speaker of the message (one sent by God) in order for the message to actually result in salvation for the hearer-believer?"Who has believed our report, indeed? And who, then, has saving faith?"
Denver Snuffer: "What I have written is taken from the scriptures, primarily the Book of Mormon. If you understood the scriptures you wouldn’t even need what I’ve written."
And who understands the scriptures fully, really? I sure didn’t especially before Denver came along and made them so much more clear. And yet, there is still so much more to learn. Are we guilty of saying: A Book of Mormon, A Book of Mormon, we have a Book of Mormon, we need no more scriptures, we have enough! Well I certainly do want and need more! I will take all the true word of God I can get. If there are/will be true Prophets and Apostles among us, won’t we have more scripture? Of course we will. We have them now if we will open our eyes and see. But we are satisfied with what we already have, so why bother? Let’s all just go back to sleep folks. Anonymous reply, you have it right on. Great comments! Thanks!
Neither Denver Snuffer not his writing falls off the face of the planet if we choose Christ first and foremost. But more importantly, no person can learn for you. Many people can point in one direction or another, but only the Spirit can testify to your heart. More Denver:"The riches of eternity are offered by the Lord to you and each of you directly. It does not come from learning “secrets” from someone else. It comes by following the path. You do not need anything more than a description of the path. Follow it. Until you follow it, the heavens will remain shut against you. As soon as you follow it, you will have the results you would like to have."
Denver also said when the true Servants, Apostles and Prophets are gone from the earth, and there is no connection to heaven, things go downhill very rapidly. Denver taught me the path in his book The Second Comforter. He pointed me to Jesus Christ. I have received the results I have wanted and much, much, more. I will leave it at that. We have had the Sermon on the Mount since we have had scriptures. So far, it has failed to produce much fruit. Because people just read it. They don’t do it. They cannot do it in a vacuum. That is why we need fellowships. I believe the fellowships are what we were to write a guide about. Why do you need a guide for something you have had since day one? The Lot’s G&S has the Doctrine of Christ, plus the Sermon on the Mount as well as a basic structure for a fellowship. We need them all to complete the assignment in my view. You don’t have to agree. We can agree to disagree. I do respect you greatly and believe your intentions are good. :) The heavens are definitely not shut to me.
Who is more likely to understand what happened to Jared: Jared or someone else? The relevant point to consider is whether or not Christ taught the Sermon. To reject the Sermon as preeminent is to reject Christ. (And Denver Snuffer for that matter.)
It happened to my best friend right in front of me. I saw the fear in her eyes. I watched the spirit depart. I was powerless to do anything. She rejected Denver, then she rejected me. Then she persecuted me. Broke my heart to pieces. She still won’t speak to me. She has no idea what happened to this day. We studied together for years, now she has lost even that which she had. It is a horrible thing to witness. We don’t have to choose to separate. When the darkness comes in, evil takes over and light flees. The light and darkness will naturally separate at some point like oil and vinegar. Darkness doesn’t like to be around light. I am not saying the Sermon on the Mount is not good or from Christ, of course it is. I am saying something new is afoot. Denver is bringing it about. Are we to ignore his influence and his teachings? He has been sent from heaven. We by our decisions will accept him or reject him. That is the test. Not including his teachings in our G&S because of not believing he is indeed sent from God is rejecting him in my view. Rejecting a true servant will damn you. Like it or not.
Believe what you will. The man you are lifting up has asked you not to do so. We can take the sacrament every week, get baptized, build temples, meet oft(as many LDS folks do), and never receive the Lord. But, if we will take Christ seriously and keep His commandments to do them, HE will teach us. He will write His law in our hearts and our eyes will open to Him (to enjoy the smiles of our Savior, I think Joseph said). Additionally, consider this thought experiment: Let's say God wanted to try His children to see if they would keep His commandments at any cost and leave ALL to follow HIM. He can't make the test too easy by allowing His children to be tempted by obvious errors and evil. No, the test has to be more subtle than that. He must test His children with something good to see if they will "have an eye single to [His] glory." That means He might send a wonderful servant such as Moses or Joseph Smith, someone who the people believe communes with God (someone who probably does commune with God). "Oooh," the people might say. I can see this man. I believe his words to be good. Surely, if I follow him, he can lead me. Surely, God will tell the man everything I need to know." Unfortunately, we know how these stories end.If you will imagine for a moment a funnel heading upward into heaven where the only people that pass through are those that look only to Christ. Doesn't it make sense that as the funnel narrows, the choices around you become more pure, more singular? And yet, no one will pass the funnel or the test while clinging to another. I am sorry you lost your best friend.
Perhaps it is also necessary for me to say that I believe Denver has seen the Lord and conversed with Him. I believe he has been asked to teach. None of that changes anything. We HAVE to receive the Holy Ghost and know the things of God for ourselves, and it is only by perfect faith and diligence to Christ that we can do so. But when people keep shouting for a king, well, the Lord may just say, "Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them" (Samuel 4:1).
Time will tell. God Bless You! I wish you well!
"Perhaps it is also necessary for me to say that I believe Denver has seen the Lord and conversed with Him."Just like you believe Jared saw the Lord, and conversed with Him before he was cut off from His presence at the Boise conference, after saying that he knew that the covenant being offered there was from God, when he really didn't, right?That is the testimony Jared shared here, on his blog, and at latter day commentaries, isn't it?
In this slide show you state: "I do not believe He is asking us to innovate. (Nowhere does His request indicate that, not even the use of the word “write.”)"Yet - in your very next slide you quote from the Answer and Covenant wherein the Lord does say that we are to "write" a statement to be added:“I command you to be wise in word and kind in deed as you write what I require of you” (A&C, p. 8).I believe it is clear that the Lord intended that we write or compile something new, outside of the Law and Doctrine that is already within the record that we have all already covenanted to accept as THE guide and standard of our faith.
I recommend rereading the Answer and Covenant document.
This quote stands out to me from Dave's Dallas talk:>Early Christians were very diverse but they agreed on two things: Christ’s doctrine,which I read to you a moment ago, and Christ’s law. The law of Christ is found in theSermon on the Mount.13 Once Christians have these two essential teachings in commonyou can have differences on other issues just like the early Christians. p.10 in the Dallas transcripthttps://www.dropbox.com/s/ozvu7wy660dttm3/2017.10.19%20Christian%20Talk%202%2C%20Dallas%20TX_transcript.pdf?dl=0
“Even the scriptures do not give a blueprint to follow. “If they contained the necessary information, Zion would've been established long ago”. God alone will establish Zion; his instructions are vital and necessary for us. Once he instructs us, the Scriptures can then be used to confirm that his directions to us now is consistent with what he prophesied, covenanted and promised would happen. “But the path to Zion is to be found only by following God’s immediate commands to us.” That is how He will bring it. He will lead us there.” (Boise Covenant Conf. opening remarks 2nd Pg.)I think this quote from the opening remarks of Denver say a lot about “the work now underway” as well as the G&S.
I am so very glad you bring this up, John. Thank you."God ALONE will establish Zion" (OR, p. 3). Notice "HIS instructions"...."the path to Zion is to be found only by following GODS's immediate commands to us"...."HE will lead us, teach us, command us, guide us, but we have to be the ones who become what He commands. We have to be the ones who do what HE bids us do" (OR, p. 3). Isn't that beautiful? God will lead us. He will command us. He will direct us. There is no need to point to anyone but Christ.Also found in the 'Opening Remarks':"It is the Lord's purpose to create equality in his vineyard. In the allegory equality in the vineyardappears three times in verses 66, 73 and 74. We cannot be greater and lesser, nor divide ourselves into an hierarchy to achieve the equality required for Zion. When a group is determined to remain equal (and I [Denver] am personally determined to be no greater than any other) then it faces challenges that never confront unequal people" (OR, p. 6)."We cannot allow ourselves to be drawn in to inequality when the result of this labor is to make usone body, equal with one another. We cannot imitate the failures of the past by establishing an hierarchy, elevating ONE above another, and forgetting that we must be of one heart, one mind and with no poor among us" (OR, p. 6-7).Let's not break HIS immediate command to mutually agree. I am sad that people feel so much hostility, but we have to do what the Lord commands. That is that.
Not sure who is pointing to anyone but Christ? But to quote Denver and then ignore his words which many here believe come from Christ seems odd. And then whos definition of mutually agree? My guess is we're all much closer in agreement than what it looks like here.
Yes and in my opinion - the LOT G&S is a wonderful document, compiling the Lord's direct instruction to His servant regarding the creation of Fellowships which return us to a more ancient form of worship. Those instructions help us to actually practice the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount amongst ourselves and can help guide others regarding the work now underway. It indeed will bless, benefit and inform others about this work. No one who is disputing the adoption of this G&S can point out how those teachings and principles would not be helpful in the overall mission of coming unto Christ and keeping His law.
Yes, I understand that your opinion is that this is a helpful document. If we are led by the Law, by the Holy Ghost, and by the commandments of Christ, His words to our ears, we do not need a handbook of instructions and it can, in fact, impede us.
Actually, let me be more bold. It will impede those who would be followers of Christ if they do not learn to take Christ alone as their guide.
And bolder yet.For the record, when I comment to this group, the concept that the only name wherein man can be saved is Jesus Christ, I consider that as a given. But if one reads the scriptures, from the beginning of time when the Lord starts His work anew, He uses a human servant to help, not to save anyone, but help the Lord as a “servant” in His vineyard. FYI, there are those who as of yet, don’t have a perfect connection to heaven, but that will be required, but in the mean time the Lord always uses servants to help.Is following Christs words as written in Matthew and 3rd Nephi following Matthew or Nephi, or the Lord?And judging others spirituality or love of God here in this forum discussing something most believe He did ask us to accomplish is rather judgmental, and of course not in accord with the Law of Christ.I love the Lord my redeemer, I follow Him only, He’s my friend and my guide!
Thanks for your testimony of Christ.
Dani and OthersI can’t speak for everyone, but I know I’m not alone.I’m very grateful you have received a testimony of the Lord and want to serve Him.Its very important that you not assume that because I took, and plan to abide the covenant, including the G&S, that I don’t have a “real” testimony of the Lord. I received my first witness of Him when I was 9 years old and many since that time. Also, don’t assume that the only covenant I have from the Lord is this one we’re discussing here, to be a part of this covenant people! I also have one from the Lord to me, given to me individually and separately from this. It’s OK to have both, and hopefully many more. One doesn’t cancel out the other one. One is between and individual and the Lord and the other is accepted individually but as a member of a group or people or a couple or a family etc.The desire is to be a part of a “people” who all know the Lord. Aka Zion!Your Brother in Christ.
The only person the majority (and minority) should be submitting to is God. All else is futile. I once saw a playthrough of a game where it appeared that the goal was escape. Some of the people banded together into one big rolling ball that could power through the enemy traps with just the loss of a few broken off arms and legs. The group gathered more and more people and broke more arms and more legs in their unity of destruction and busted right through the final door just to find themselves in a new, dreary place, rolling down into a pool of filth, unable to separate, unable to move except to continue to struggle against one another. It was a very haunting image. Another child continued on his own trying to overcome the traps as they occurred. In the end, he disconnected the people from the controller only to find out he disconnected himself.
If, however, we can connect to the higher source, to have a relationship with the Lord, we won't need escape because nothing will have power to harm us.
In being lifted up, we will become and "be one."