Monday, January 8, 2018

A Request for One Heart

We have been asked to post the following invitation:

In the The Covenant, the Lord asks us 2 important questions:
Do you agree to assist all others who covenant to likewise accept this standard to
govern their lives to keep the Lord’s will, to succor those who stand in need, to lighten the burdens of your brothers and sisters whenever you are able, and to help care for the poor among you?
And do you covenant to seek to become of one heart with those who seek the Lord
to establish His righteousness?
Taken together, this includes efforts on our own part to help others come to be of one heart.

This issue goes well beyond the Guide & Standard mess. It affects many of us in many different parts of our lives:
And he also saw other multitudes pressing their way towards that great and spacious building. And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain, and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads. (NC 1NE 2:12)

In the hope of turning our focus in the right direction and perhaps bringing our hearts a bit closer together, I'm inviting anyone interested to participate in a general fast this coming Sunday, Jan. 14, and a united prayer at 2 p.m. MST on that day for the Lord to help us become of one heart. We can also keep a prayer in our heart throughout the day for the same purpose.

This can be an opportunity for those who feel they are ready to press forward to pause and show charity to those who are struggling with their personal stumbling blocks so that we can all move forward together with one heart.

A sister in the Covenant.


  1. We must become precious to each other. Sacrifice is necessary for a pure heart. I will support your effort dear sister, to help us come closer together in our hearts. I believe we tend to get stuck in our heads. I learned something this week that should have been obvious to me. Without love and compassion, there is no power. Because without charity or the pure love of Christ, you have nothing. God has to be in our hearts, if He isn’t we are worthless. He allowed me to suffer greatly for that understanding. Thank you dear Lord for your loving kindness and mercy. Thank you for the pain it took to awaken me to You. Love, Lisa

  2. I'm not sure if everyone has taken time to listen to Denver's latest talk given on January 14th (it can be found on his website under downloads)? He said a few things that are worth considering. He said that he never gets answers from the Lord quickly and that real answers take careful, solemn and ponderous thought. So the answer received quickly by the lots group (and all others who received answers quickly) would fall under his definition of unacceptable/not the way the Lord works.

    Additionally - he said the Sermon on the Mount was the way to go. He answered the quandaries pretty succinctly in that talk and I recommend you all to listen to it.

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    2. Hi Anonymous,

      Because Denver was expressly forbidden from participating in the G&S, I believe his comments were intentionally vague and distanced from the actual events happening. As an example, here's a direct quote:

      “If a group of prayerful people spend months focused on a challenge, and then many hours together—and individually—discussing, searching, praying and looking to heaven for guidance, and then reach a conclusion they can all individually and collectively testify came from heaven, how can I adequately test their outcome without giving it careful, solemn, ponderous thought and take the time to test and retest the answer we get.”

      Depending on your filters, he could be describing the group of seven chosen by lots, or he could be describing the Aug. 5th group, or even other groups who have arrived at conclusions.

      Similarly, regarding the "quick answer" issue, was he calling out the seven? Or the nonmancaaf folks? Or others? You get to point the finger at whomever you choose.

      But the real issue is not trying to use Denver's words as proof someone is right or wrong. Denver's point was that we should all, each, individually engage in careful and ponderous and solemn thought and take time to seek answers. The idea that we can take no thought other than to ask--and expect to receive lengthy, detailed revelation in response--that's the problem. Denver took months before he even dared pray.

    3. I listened to it 7 or more times, and I heard something different than you did. I think you may have cherry-picked what you wanted to hear. I think he did mention Sermon on the Mount, but he also mentioned doing the covenants, as well as the Doctrine if Christ. I believe he was addressing those who have heard a voice from the Lord speak to them that this one has to be it because the Lord told me so and that's the end of the discussion. We are damned if we choose another. The voice of the evil one is at work here and these voices must be tested. As a result, are you compelling others, are you using unrighteous dominion? Are you gratifying your own pride? Are you only listening for what you want to hear? In the talk we we're cautioned to look deeper, test the spirits, and question our own motives. We should be considering the fact that we are breaking each other's hearts. We are putting each other through a large degree of stress and pain because of our own selfish desires. Compulsion, dispute have no place here. To tell you the truth, I would have a lot easier time accepting the Sermon on the Mount,or the Rock of Jesus Christ or whatever, if it didn't seem like someone was trying to force me to choose it, and there wasn't so much intensity from those who dissent at every turn. That feels wrong to me. It's not God's voice it is compulsion. Forcing is compelling, and compelling is of the Devil. Do you see what I mean? God help us to love and care for each other as a Covenant family, such that we stop hurting each other with our own selfish desires and attitudes. Because without love, we cannot keep our covenants, no matter what G&S we choose. I consider Denver to be the chosen prophesied of, Servant of the Lord for our day. God's words are the same from Him or His Servants. I think those who only want the Sermon in the Mount, do not accept Denver as the Davidic Servant. This bothers me because what else good will we want to throw away because we revile against being taught by anyone but Christ himself? Well there will be Prophets and Apostles who will teach right here among us. They will not compel, they will not dispute, they will love they will teach the words from God's own mouth. Let's prepare our hearts to recognize them when they appear.

  3. So would the Davidic servant, in your opinion, be speaking face to face with the Lord frequently? Because Denver showed in that talk, that is not the case for him. It took him “months” before he even “dared” pray about the covenant. Whaaat the?!. This is a 180 degree different Christ than Denver talked about being so approachable in the 10 lectures. And in his talk given last week Denver showed that he never spoke face to face with Christ about the covenant. He did it just like they do in SLC - studying it out and doing their best to recieve inspiration. We’ve all traded one prophet for another and neither are regularly speaking with Christ face to face. But somehow it’s okay because Denver spoke with Christ at one time so we assume he is still doing so today. He De-bunked that myth on Sunday’s lecture.

    Wake UP!

    And Adrian - you (and Denver) can make it sound like all the people spent months getting answers. Arguing for months isn’t the same thing. They settled on lots (to use one group example) and within days they drew them and a short moment later - voila, an answer. No matter how you word it, Denver is contradicting himself and you are justifying all his actions and words. It’s called - Cognitive Dissonance...;)

    1. Go in peace, Anonymous. No one is forcing you to accept a servant of God that you don't think is a servant of God. And I doubt you will convince those who believe Denver is a true messenger otherwise.

  4. Ah, thank you brother! I think you just made my point. I do believe Denver is the Davidic Servant, without a doubt! I value his words. I have probably read everything he has ever written, more than once. I study them and I practice them. I have pierced the veil as a result. I cherish the Covenant as I do my Covenant family. If you do not believe Denver is the Davidic Servant, why would you or any one else that does not, be participating in this effort, except to cause confusion and dissention? I leave it to the body to study it out and seek God's will and truth regarding the voices, on either side you hear on this matter. The truth will set you free!

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  6. Part One:
    Teachings and Commandments
    SECTION 23
    [LE: 76:98-102, KE: 91]

    From the first part of paragraph 11:
    And the glory of the Telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars are one, for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the Telestial world. For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas; these are they who say they are some of one and some of another: some of Christ, and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, some of Enoch, (some of Denver?) but received not the gospel neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenants. Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn and received into the cloud. (Emphasis added.)

    As I’ve taken time to ponder, pray, and consider all that is going on, I found myself wondering about this scripture. Could this be us currently? Different ideas and proposals, perhaps this verse could readily be reworded to look like this:

    And the glory of the Telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars are one, for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the Telestial world. For these are they who are of

    1. Jeff Savage Original
    2. Jeff Savage Original w/ Edits
    3. Alt Guiding Principles
    4. DOC Fellowship GP
    5. June 10th GP
    6. July 2nd GP
    7. Alternative GP 1
    8. Alternative GP 2
    9. Alternative GP 3
    10. Alternative GP 4
    11. August 5th Guide & Standard
    12. Amalgamation of G&S Versions
    13. LZ’s Salty Fellowship Guide
    14. Covenant Approach to GS
    15. Taylor Child’s Post It.
    16. Anonymous GP 20171027
    17. The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles
    18. Simple Guide and Standard
    19. Revised Statement of Principles
    20. Eternal Progression
    21. Eternal Progression (Modern English Version)
    22. Guide and Standard - Nonmancaaf Swhafugs
    23. A Guide and Standard Chosen by Lots
    24. ComeServe Principles
    25. Doctrine of Christ
    26. Other (write in)

    but received not the gospel neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenants. Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn and received into the cloud. (Listed text from the Nonmancaaf Swhafugs post “Seeking Information”-12/21/17.)

    Could it be that if we continue on this trajectory, we will in essence recreate the divided Christianity of a post-Resurrection world? Could it be that is part of why Denver was instructed to teach that in one of the talks to Christians? Is that what we want? Is that what Christ has in His Mind and Heart to do?

    Who are “some of Christ” the scripture is referring to? What do they sound like in speech? In manner? In doctrine? What is it about them that tells others they are “of Christ” and not “of Moses?” Or “of John?” Or “of Cephas” (Peter)?

    And yet, they still fall short of the glory of God, being no brighter or united than the stars in the firmament. What did they lack yet? The scripture goes on to identify some not good qualities…

    to be continued...

    1. Part Two:
      So I ask myself, what statement of principles could a group of people of differing backgrounds and beliefs put forward to the world that would immediately convey to all that they are in deed and word OF CHRIST?

      To my way of thinking, and I am open to hearing your thoughts on this, it could very well be the “Sermon on the Mount,” the sermon at Bountiful, and the doctrine of Christ from Third Nephi. They are the words He spoke here on this earth as a mortal and then as an Ascended, Resurrected Being, yes? They are words not “channeled” (not a judgment) or given merely (again, not a judgment) through the Spirit, but were actually uttered from His own mouth as He interacted face-to-face with people here on earth. And I suspect that those other records we look forward to receiving just might have their own “Sermon on the Mount.” Think about it, He taught the same principles and law on two different continents to two different groups of people. Why would He change or teach something “more or less than” to any today? Thoughts?

      I am grateful for the talk Denver gave on 1/14/18. So thankful. I feel humbled by what he said, and am desirous to continue eating as much humble pie as required to fix my errant beliefs, soften my heart, and eventually bring me face-to-face with the Spirit of Truth Who is able to teach me the mysteries of godliness. I want to grow up.

      I am grateful for everything that Denver has written or said that I have been able to read or hear. I would not be where I am at without those things.

      But am I supposed to be seeking Denver or seeking Christ? Am I supposed to be awaiting the next fellowship he visits and records a message at? Or am I supposed to be working my fanny off to discern, hear, and ultimately know Christ? Is Denver the new Moses?

      What would someone “who know[s] nothing as yet of [His] work now underway” think if presented with a document that is mostly from/through Denver?

      Given all that we think we’ve learned and come to understand through Denver’s writings and the scriptures themselves, why are we still struggling so much to become one?

      to be continued...

    2. Part Three:
      I have found myself wondering about Salem and Enoch’s city of late. What were the baby steps they were required to take as they went through a similar process? What tasks did Jehovah give to them? Are we at all similar to them at this stage? Are we more hardened, more stiffnecked, more prideful?

      I often consider the faith of Melchizedek and reflect on a question Denver posed in, I think, the talk on the Holy Order recently, where he asked, “Would you rather have faith without priesthood, or priesthood without faith?” Whoa. Take a look at what Melchizedek’s faith (in Christ) accomplished:

      [RE Alma 6, para. 30, p. 398]
      Now this Melchizedek was a king over the land of Salem. And his people had waxed strong in iniquity and abominations, yea, they had all gone astray; they were full of all manner of wickedness. But Melchizedek, having exercised mighty faith and received the office of the high priesthood according to the holy order of God, did preach repentance unto his people. And behold they did repent. And Melchizedek did establish peace in the land in his days, therefore he was called the prince of peace, for he was the king of Salem and he did reign under his father. Now there were many before him, and also, there were many afterward, but none was greater. (Emphasis added.)

      [RE Genesis 7, para. 19, p. 23]
      And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order, therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace. And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world, And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together, and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire. And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace. (Emphasis added.)

      Does whatever statement of principles you support enlarge and build such a faith in Christ?

      There is a lot I would like to say, but choose not to. I am not interested in contending for what I want. I do not desire to hurt or offend anyone. I genuinely care for and want to learn from all. I believe there is a lot I still need to learn.

      BUT, I would think we would all much rather have a statement of principles adopted by mutual agreement because we all stand firmly upon the principles we are espousing as our collective and individual guide and standard to the world, and NOT because some determined to no longer dispute over it.

      The latter process and end sounds like some could still feel as though they were COMPELLED or FORCED to go along. But maybe that is a purpose for this task? Some must learn to lay all desires and fears down at the feet of Christ, trusting Him to do HIS WORK? And this is HIS WORK, correct? It is not the lotsters’ work, or my work, or Denver’s work. Thoughts?


    3. Christ is the way the truth and the life. Denver is a true messenger who teaches truth, and that led me to Christ. I do not worship Denver, but I am grateful that someone teaches truth, so I ingest all the truth and light I can, and that aligns me squarely with Christ, where I need to be to discern truth from error. I think others need the benefit of these truths to help them do the same.

    4. It is not an either/or prospect. You can preach Denver all you like. You just shouldn't try to force others to do the same by insisting that Denver's words must be included in a document we are all to agree to and follow. Let's show that we value the things the Lord commands above all else and all others.

    5. If I understand what you are saying with the either/or statement. Let me try to answer: If you don’t think a true messenger can and does lead you to Christ, remember Adam and Eve in the Temple film. There are two choices, true messengers or Satan. The test is identifying the true messenger(s). I think if we are saying Denver’s words from the Lord are good enough to accept as a prayer and answer for Covenant, which I am assuming we already agreed too, why would we insist on omitting them from the G&S, unless we did not believe he was truly representing the Lord, and if that was the case, why accept the Covenant? It seems double minded to me. I am absolutely not taking anything away from Jesus Christ in voicing my testimony of His Servant. Jesus Christ is my all and all! I have given up everything to know Him. However, Enoch was instrumental in building Zion, so was Melchizedek, Moses would have been, if not for the stiffneckedness of the people. Paul, Peter, John, etc., taught while Christ was here and continued after His assent into heaven. It is their notes and their accounts we have in scripture. We have all the scripture we need, we need no more? I am not insisting or disputing anything, nor have I. I’m sorry and I repent if it sounded that way. Just a feeble attempt at persuasion. We all have a lot at stake here. I pray our hearts will become one with God and each other. We should heed the advice we just received to test our inspiration, revelation, our motives, the condition of our hearts. Sorry to monopolize so much of your time.

    6. Part One:
      [My] friend :), thank you so much for responding and seeking to help me understand. I see no reason for you to apologize. I appreciate your willingness to help me understand how you are viewing this task given us by Christ. If I may, I would like to emphasize that I am not trying to persuade anyone with my thoughts and comments. I simply would like help in understanding what I am hearing and seeing. I ask questions about things I am struggling to understand in meaning and application, particularly within the word of God. Look at what I share as me expressing concerns I am trying to resolve over the G&S.

      I don’t know why, maybe because I tend to be easily distracted or don’t realize my part in studying things out, but I never thought to study D&C 20 until recently. Yet I had always wondered why “the original” G&S looked as it did. Once I finally opened up D&C 20 for a gander I could easily see why the very first G&S had the look, sound, and feel it did. I am not being critical of it here either. I liked it, and also had no issues with all the others. They were formulated with it in mind.

      Then after all that has happened since—the votes, the meetings, the discussions, etc. I quite suddenly found myself feeling like the whole shebang was/is off somehow. We were/are not united, and was/is that simply a matter of not disputing at this point? Or is there really an importance to what is actually stated in the G&S? Do our words chosen really matter?

      It appeared to me that by November there were just as many proposals for a G&S as there were fellowships all over the world. I could see some had a lot of passion and desire to be faithful in this work, along with connections and influence (not necessarily bad things), and were also thinking how to fix that ‘little’ problem of oneness. Up until then I was quite honestly just along for the ride and willing to accept anything. I was not thinking for myself, however; though I was certainly doing my best to pray and seek answers. I was not studying the matter out, like many of you who are much wiser than I had been doing all along. Once I began that endeavor to really understand and determine for myself Spirit’s voice to me, I found myself wondering if we are truly supposed to mimic D&C 20. Maybe we are? I suppose we could and we/it/His Work would be fine. He is not limited by our weaknesses after all.

      But some matters have come to the forefront of my thoughts of late, and I am unable to quiet them.

      Last spring I was told by Spirit to study the “Sermon on the Mount” and apply it. I was slow to hearken to that counsel (that does not bode well for my future!), but have since repented. (It was Jared’s/Log’s insistence [some might call it obstinateness] with The Rock of Jesus Christ that helped me turn to study it.) What I discovered was the answer to much of what troubles me in my life right now. I have found that those words of Christ truly are enough, and I really have a challenge in living them. It’s like a blueprint for solving the world’s problems…

    7. Part Two:
      As for Denver’s teachings and message, those are easily accessible, I think. I did not have a G&S that led me to those things to begin with, so do I really need to create/co-create a statement that has more of the pertinent material when what I really need is Christ’s words alone? Will not Christ through Holy Ghost lead me (each of us) to a talk, a blog post, a book, a person, an idea as I become prepared? Has He not done that all along?

      I mean, I’ve spent the last few years reading and listening to Denver (some of you were on track twenty or more years ago when my husband and I were blithely dancing along the LDS path), but I am still filled with pride. Despite all he has taught, I still struggle to like, much less love, my “enemies,” to “bless those who curse [me],” to “give to those who ask of [me]”, to forgive, etc. I still have issues in need of healing and a laundry list to repent of daily. But maybe I am far behind everyone else on this covenant path? Maybe I am still toddling along and many of you are able to run? And a G&S filled with emphases on ordinance how-to’s and therefore’s and fellowshipping enlarges your lives and easily points you to Christ?

      I admit I am rife with problems, and unfortunately a guide and standard not focusing me strictly upon Christ’s teachings does not seem to have the power to help solve them. But am I over-thinking what we are supposed to do? Am I making the G&S more important than what it is? Am I assuming too much that is not supposed to be done by Holy Ghost?

      You have mentioned some important points about Enoch, Melchizedek, Paul, etc. They were all important in their roles and missions. I agree, and would agree to the same of Denver today. But I would like to understand the vision Joseph and Sidney were given in LE 76 and RE 23, what did that portion concerning those whose glory is that of the stars mean and does it apply to what is happening right now? Did it describe those in a post-Mortal Messiah time? How were some "of Cephas" yet not also "of Christ?" How were some "of Isaiah" yet not also "of Christ?" And how did some manage to be “of Christ” yet not prepared to receive the glory Celestial? What did all those various “fellowships” who started out knowing Christ (most?) teach and preach that caused them to be described in such a way? What would their G&S have looked like? All different, or one statement of principles?

      My concern with OUR G&S: Could/would we be identified as simply being ‘of Denver’ and nothing more? Or if a single G&S is published yet various groups determine to follow their own thinking/G&S, then surely that is what RE 23/LE 76 is meaning? Is that where we are at currently? Is everyone okay with such an outcome? Is it inevitable and how Heaven operates already?

      By appearances we certainly look more like the scattered stars in the firmament…We do not yet have the look of the brightness that lay at the center of a galaxy or universe where light is everywhere, is one.

      A Science-y friend shared this super short video with me a while back. I think it shows what I mean.


    8. Some more thinking on my part: Remember what Christ said in His A&C about how Peter and Paul had disagreements (plural), which resulted in "jarring and sharp contentions" (plural)?

      Is it accurate to say that the jarring and contentions were not simply between Cephas and Paul but also extended out to be between those "of Cephas" and those "of Paul?" And Christ has admonished us that...I will just quote Him:

      "For you to UNITE I must admonish and instruct you, for MY WILL IS TO HAVE YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER. AS A PEOPLE you lack the ability to respectfully disagree among one another. YOU ARE AS PAUL AND PETER WHOSE DISAGREMENTS RESULTED IN JARRING AND CONTENTIONS. Nevertheless they both loved me and I loved them. YOU MUST DO BETTER."

      Oh geez. I feel so thick in the head and heart. He is saying it right there.

  7. I appreciate your honesty and understandings. In the direction to unite behind a G&S, the purpose is for us to be able to do greater things at the Lord’s hand. Incidentally, He has sent His hand again the second time. It is appearing to me that much of the disagreement regarding the G&S, is that some do not want Denver’s teachings as part of it. In my view, Denver is the very instrument God is using to fulfil His work. Without Denver, we would divide into factions, separate and wonder in the wilderness. We have to be willing to accept the teaching from a TRUE Servant of the Lord. Because by the Lord’s own words or the Servant(s) IT IS THE SAME. Rejecting a true Servant is perilous. I have seen it happen, it is not a pretty sight. The difference between a true Servant and an imposter, is that a true Servant will not compel, they will not accuse, they will not do anything that is against God’s will, if they do they feel the conviction immediately, which causes them to speedily repent, which Denver has said he is very careful not to do anything out of alignment with the Lord. That is a very smart thing. Satan really hates true Servants. In Jacob 5, God’s Servant is the only one who keeps the vineyard from being burned. The vineyard is not producing fruit. Is it now? How will it? Have any ideas? How long have we had the scriptures before us? Still very little fruit. True Servants teach, largely by example, not placing themselves as superiors, but as equals, with meekness, with every form of godliness, because they have been born of the Spirit. If God were here, I am sure we would all rally around Him, or maybe we would crucify Him, in any case we would all probably be incinerated. Until we can stand in His glory, I am cool to listen and learn from those authorized messengers that He has sent, whose words come from God’s very own mouth. Not worship, not to place on a pedistal, not to praise, not even to follow, especially not to blindly follow, but to learn truth, which essentially brings us even closer to Jesus Christ, because He is the truth. My testimony comes from the Lord that He has sent Denver/David. You do not have to take my word for it. Please don’t. However, if we gain a testimony that Denver is the Davidic Servant, or the Lord’s hand sent againg the second time, there should be no problem accepting his teachings in our G&S or even in our hearts. Denver’s teachings have only brought me closer to Jesus, my Savior, my Redeemer, my Friend. There will also be others that come among us that are sent, again see Jacob 5. We will be writing new scripture about our time. Ask of God, He will direct you in the right path. He said He would confirm my words. God Bless you dear Sister, I know your intentions are good. I hope we all can be as honest in our hearts. God can work with an honest heart. Love, Lisa. I talk too much! So sorry!

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  9. "It is appearing to me that much of the disagreement regarding the G&S, is that some do not want Denver’s teachings as part of it."

    Since the G&S must be adopted by mutual agreement - meaning there cannot be any dissent or dispute or a proposal cannot be adopted - then it sounds like the resolution to disagreements over the G&S is to not include any of Denver's teachings in the G&S.

    Besides, we know that those who trust Denver are cursed, and that teaching men to trust Denver would curse, harm, and misinform them, so we wouldn't want to put Denver's teachings in the G&S anyways lest they get the wrong impression and think they can trust Denver. We want to do what the Lord asked, not show ourselves loyal to Denver.

    Jared Livesey

    1. Hello Log, :) I have a few questions for you. Do you believe or have you received confirmation that Denver is the Davidic Servant, the one the Lord has sent, the Lord’s Hand sent again the second time, the Servant in Jacob 5, you know the one Gileadi talks about all the time? I am curious. By your above post it appears that you do not. Or if so, you will not trust someone that the Lord has sent to help facilitate the work of the Last Days. It’s not a trick question and I am not judging you. I am just trying to understand your position. Thanks, Lisa

    2. And I know the scripture you are referring too about being cursed.

    3. 2 Nephi 28:31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

  10. Lisa,

    I do not know whether or not Denver is the Davidic servant of whom you speak, and it makes no difference whether he is or not: if he is the Davidic servant, all who trust him are going to hell unless and until they repent and rely solely upon the Lord; if he is not the Davidic servant, all who trust him are going to hell unless and until they repent and rely solely upon the Lord.

    I shall do exactly and only as the Lord commands; there is nothing more to understand about my position.

    Jared Livesey

    1. Ok, that is fair, thanks for being truthful. Is the scripture above in 2nd Nephi the one you derive your position from about trusting in a man? And would you have trusted in Enoch?

  11. The scriptures to which I refer are these:

    2 Nephi 4:34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

    Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

    2 Nephi 28:31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    JST Mark 9:44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall by himself and not for another, or not trusting another.

    Also, these too should be kept in mind.

    To lead men astray - for example, by teaching them to trust in men - is to murder them, said Alma (Alma 36:14), and we know that no murderer has eternal life, said John (1 John 3:15). Therefore, those who teach men to trust in men do not have eternal life.

    Jared Livesey

  12. Anyone who trusted Enoch back in the day would be in hell right now. There is no exception to the Lord's statement that any who trust men are cursed. It doesn't matter if it is a "true" or "authorized" "messenger" or "servant" or "prophet" or "priest" or "king" who is trusted; all who trust men are cursed - severed from the Lord's presence, denied association with him - that is, denied priesthood - and abide without eternal life.

    Jared Livesey

  13. Ok, let me try to answer the first point. I agree with you not to put your trust in the arm of the flesh. I would say that a man who is born again, has experienced a Spiritual Rebirth who is Perfected in Christ is not after the flesh (arm of the flesh) as your scriptural references describe. Here are the scriptures that support this understanding.

    Colossians 1:28

    1 John 5:18
    18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

    JST, 2 Corinthians 5:16-17
    16 Wherefore, henceforth live we no more after the flesh; yea, though we once lived after the flesh, yet since we have known Christ, now henceforth live we no more after the flesh.
    17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Ephesians 4:22-24
    22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
    24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

    Romans 6:20-23 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    So the point is that the arm of the flesh is a natural man who is an enemy to God. The Spiritually reborn man is free from sin, a new creature - no longer of the flesh, produces fruit, is a servant of God and is given God’s power to do God’s work when necessary. Do a scripture search on it yourself.

    Abraham and Noah were 2 such men. Well God’s true Servants have to be because born of the Spirit, they need to be trusted by God to do His work. If God trusts them, why would I not? Nephi also warranted this trust from the Lord. See next post.

  14. “Blessed art thou, Nephi, for those things which thou hast done; for I have beheld how thou hast with unwearyingness declared the word, which I have given unto thee, unto this people. And thou hast not feared them, and hast not sought thine own life, but hast sought my will, and to keep my commandments. And now, because thou hast done this with such unwearyingness, behold, I will bless thee forever; and I will make thee mighty in word and in deed, in faith and in works; yea, even that all things shall be done unto thee according to thy word, for thou shalt not ask that which is contrary to my will. Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. And thus, if ye shall say unto this temple it shall be rent in twain, it shall be done. And if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou cast down and become smooth, it shall be done. And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass.And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction.” (Helaman 10: 4-11.)

    This is meekness. First, Nephi had conducted his life meekly. He did not fear others. He was not afraid to lose his standing, even his life. He kept God’s commandments to him above all else. He possessed an iron will, his face like flint, unwilling to waiver from what the Lord would have him say and do. He could not be tempted to betray the Lord’s will. Therefore, the Lord knew by the way Nephi lived his life that he would “not ask that which is contrary to [the Lord’s] will.” Never.

    Therefore, when the Lord had tried him and determined he was willing to serve Him at all costs, he qualifies to receive trust from God. That trust allows the Lord to confer upon the man great power. (See also TPJS p. 150: “After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, is baptized for the remission of his sins, and receives the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness and living by every word of God. The Lord will soon say unto him, ‘Son, thou shalt be exalted.’ When the Lord has thoroughly proved him and finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and election made sure.”)

    Meekness is required to qualify for great power. And you know a man is meek when, having great power, he uses it strictly in conformity with the Lord’s will; never varying from the Lord’s command, and never pursuing his own agenda. This kind of meekness is men is a rare thing. Nephi, after receiving that power, was instructed that he was to deliver the Lord’s message: “thus saith the Lord God, who is Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction.” It is the Lord’s judgment. It is a meek man who delivers it. But such judgments only come after the Lord has a meek soul upon whom He can place this trust. For He has covenanted to always first employ such a servant before imposing judgments upon mankind. (Amos 3: 7.)

  15. "If God trusts them, why would I not?"

    Because God says if you do, you are cursed - severed from his presence, denied association with him, and hellbound.

    Those who have received the Holy Ghost, given upon full and sincere repentance from all sin and baptism, need no man - not even a "true" or "authorized" "messenger" or "servant" or "prophet" or "priest" or "king" - to teach them (1 John 2:20,27).

    Moreover, we know the Lord tests men on precisely this point - to see if they are loyal to him, or loyal to his servants - whether they rely on him alone, or trust men, as demonstrated in 1 Kings 13.

    Wisdom, therefore, dictates that we not murder men by teaching them to trust any other man. I prefer eternal life to hell, though I acnowledge all are free to make that choice for themselves.

    Jared Livesey

    1. Arm of Flesh = Natural Man - We are not to trust in the arm of flesh or natural man who is an enemy to God. There are plenty of them around.

      2Nephi 28:31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. I think this scripture says pretty clearly, you can trust a man if their precepts are given by the power of the Holy Ghost. I do believe Denver qualifies under this qualification.
      Are you sure the scripture reference above is correct 1 John 2:20,27?

      If you have watched the LDS Temple film which is for the most part valid. You will see Adam and Eve participating in their test. The test is to discern True Messengers from False Messengers or Satan, which implies there is both. And we know there is by experience. Jehovah sends the True Messengers at Elohiem’s command. Think of their attributes and power. They don’t need money, they don’t preach the preceipts of men mingled with scripture, they cast Satan out. Adam says now. I know your are True Messengers sent from the Father. These are True Messengers. And then something like - I would exhort you to give strict heed to their teachings and they will lead you in the ways of truth and salvation. And Satan goes off into the tribulations, and Adam and Eve are protected. Well that’s my take anyway. Haven’t been to the Temple in a while. The 64,000 dollar question is, really it’s free, just wanted to say that - Who are the True Messengers today? Who’s teachings should we give heed too?
      True Servants are His mouth, and they are His hands. You should ask the Lord who they are. The Spirit will reveal it to you, if you ask properly.

  16. I think that covers the trust in the arm of the flesh issue. Now for the question about Enoch. You say that if a man followed Enoch he was damned. :0

    Moses 7:13 And so great was the faith of Enoch that he led the people of God, and their enemies came to battle against them; and he spake the word of the Lord, and the earth trembled, and the mountains fled, even according to his command; and the rivers of water were turned out of their course; and the roar of the lions was heard out of the wilderness; and all nations feared greatly, so powerful was the word of Enoch, and so great was the power of the language which God had given him.
    14 There also came up a land out of the depth of the sea, and so great was the fear of the enemies of the people of God, that they fled and stood afar off and went upon the land which came up out of the depth of the sea.

    Now this is the kind of guy that I would get behind. Why because the Lord trusted Enoch to speak His words, and use His mighty power. Why would I not want to be hanging out with Enoch? The people of Enoch’s city just decided independently to do everything they did. What would that even look like? I don’t think so. Enoch taught and instructed the people in meekness and all forms of godliness.

    We have had the Holy Scriptures with us for how long? The Sermon on the Mount and at Bountiful are beautiful true scriptures, and I love them. People are not getting it, if they were, well we wouldn’t need a Servant. But the scriptures say otherwise. And the vineyard is still barren, except for the Servant and some other Servants that have received this Spiritual Rebirth. Everyone can do this. Do a scripture study on it. It is amazing. The Second Comforter is a great resource as well.

    I know Denver is the Servant whom God trusts. I know it without any reservation. The Spirit has borne witness to it, and it has been confirmed. But do not take my word for it. I am not disputing or forcing or anything like that. I am using my knowledge and experiences to try to persuade.

    We are taking time to study it out and go back to the Lord for answers and confirmation. He said He would confirm my words. We should be putting Denver’s teachings into our G&S. We have to know and help others know how to learn and do greater things. There is a lot of work to be done. Log, please help us to do it. Ask, Seek, Knock wth pure intent, one more time. Open your heart. This is the Father’s work.

  17. Indeed, the whole reason I do or say anything among this people is that I am trying to help you.

    Jared Livesey

  18. I have made true good and valid responses to your points. So do you think the Covenant was from the Lord? Did you say yes and agree to the Covenant?

  19. I believe the covenant to be from the Lord and I did say yes to the covenant. If this is in doubt, one may inquire of the Lord.

    The formula for such inquiries is as follows:

    1 Nephi 15:11
    Do ye not remember the thing which the Lord hath said?
    If ye will not harden your hearts
    and ask me in faith
    believing that ye shall receive
    with diligence in keeping my commandments
    surely these things shall be made known unto you.

    Jared Livesey

  20. Let me see if I can understand this-
    You don’t trust Denver because he is a man. You say all will go to hell if we do. Denver gave the prayer for the Covenant and the Answer. Yet you accepted the Covenant. Were you not trusting Denver (a man) when you did that? Denver was solely responsible for delivering the Covenant. Why would you accept it, especially from a man you don’t know is a Servant of God. That totally does not compute.
    Help me understand that logic.

    Oh, and you called me a Wo(man) in an earlier post, what did you mean? I think I know, but I’m not sure.

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  23. Lisa,

    I have made mistakes in the past. I learned from them, and I try to help others to not commit them by explaining the nature of the errors, or, if they have committed or are committing them, to help them to repent, and I certainly will not agree to lead others to commit them and thus murder them and send myself to hell.

    The old prophet in 1 Kings 13 who led the young prophet astray was told by an angel to entice the young prophet; the words the old prophet spoke to the young prophet came from the Lord. The young prophet listened to the old prophet instead of relying solely upon the Lord's word to himself and was slain and went to hell for it. It was a fair test of his integrity, his loyalty to and love for and faith in the Lord, and he failed.

    Thus saith the Lord: cursed be the man that trusteth in man[.]

    If you read the A&C carefully, you will find that the covenant offered through Denver was utterly unnecessary. All any of us had (have) to do if we wanted (want) God's covenant, he says in the A&C, was (is) to actually do what he says to do in the Book of Mormon. And what he says to do in the Book of Mormon is the Sermon (1 Nephi 13:40-41 - the words he established by his own mouth in person in both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon).

    The Sermon is an all-encompassing guide and standard to those who believe and freely do it. The Sermon is the straight and narrow path which leads to life - to Jesus himself - and few there be that find it. Those who have his sayings and commandments and do them are they who love him and he will come to them and bring the Father to them, he says.

    They are Zion.

    Jared Livesey

  24. Thanks Log for the pointed explanation. I appreciate knowing your understanding, because it helps me to reassess my own decisions and actions regarding Denver and the Covenant.

    You are trying to save us by making it impossible for us to move forward. You are only 1 person, and there are many others who have differing thoughts on the matter. But I want to address your concerns.

    I think most of us having been in the LDS church at some point and then abruptly awakened to our blindness have been jaded by false prophets. No question. I feel that pain. However, there were true prophets as well. There is opposition in all things, wouldn’t you say?

    The Lord has a work for us to do. We cannot do it independently without help. We need to be taught by true messengers. We need to be led to physical safety. Jesus Christ is the author of our Spiritual salvation. No one can come unto the Father but by me. No question. I would never trust my spiritual welfare to anyone but Jesus Christ himself.

    However, due to the impending difficulties we are facing in the near future, we are going to need physical protection. Zion is a place of safety. It is the pure in heart, but it is also a physical location. Zion is built on Celestial principles, so those who help build it must be living a Celesitial law, which is possible here, refer to Temple endowment. So there are things and people that we need help reform, restore, replace, rebuild to secure the necessary elements for that protection. And a Temple will have to be built. Are we going to just show up and start laying bricks independent of any leadership? That doesn’t make sense at all. Most people laughed at Noah for building a boat. If they thought the way you did they would say that God would save them. Well he may have after they were dead. But while they were alive they needed the protection of the arc. And Noah was the Lord’s hand to provide that protection.

  25. What if you are the old prophet leading people astray? In my view, you have dug in with your own strength with an iron will not to budge from your stance. If we did have to have your consent to move forward, and you would not relent, you would be damning everyone. Is that what you want? You would be taking the free agency away from others if that were the case. Satan is the one who does that.
    Now I really don’t think the Lord is going to damn everyone because of you, and if you thing so, then you don’t know the Lord. Besides, you never accepted the Covenant given my Denver, you just said so, that is was not necessary. If you hold that opinion, then I really don’t think your heart was in it.

    I would like to see you come along though, you definitely keep things interesting.

    I had a dream last night. I was laying in my bed resting, in the dream. I leaned up to look around on the floor and I saw several mummys who were taped up from head to toe. They were bound, couldn’t see, couldn’t hear, couldn’t speak. I had prayed for you before I went to bed that the Lord could somehow impress upon you the truth and help you work out your differences. I love everybody and I don’t want to lose anyone. Denver said there would be further pruning. That breaks my heart. The dream may mean that some will not be able to come along because they are bound. I am not suggesting that the dream was about you. Because I didn’t see a name on the mummies. But it did tell me that some will move on and some would not, no matter how much we love them or care for them.

    This is really not about what we choose as a guide and standard. It is about our hearts and how we choose to work together to accomplish what the Lord asks of us. One person trying to direct the whole body is not how it works. If you feel you need to save us, please don’t worry, I take full responsibility for my choices. You cannot save people through compulsion anyway. You are wasting your time. Let it go Log. Let us make our own choices. We are accountable. I choose to be taught by a True Servant of the Lord. I believe and know that Denver C. Snuffer Jr. is the latter day David sent from God to lead us in these last days and to complete the restoration of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and all that entails in preparation for the Second Coming of our Savior in His Glory. I pray that we will all work together to help accomplish this awesome labor of love. And that is about enough from me. I apologize for taking the space. Love, Lisa

  26. Lisa,

    If we all mutually agree to The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles, then you get to teach whatsoever you believe to be necessary within your fellowship, while I will not be compelled to teach anything more or less than the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    In this manner there can be peace and agreement between us, consistent with the Lord's requirements and commandments and counsel in the A&C.

    Jared Livesey

  27. Lisa, I am so appreciative of your testimony and witness of the Lord Jesus Christ's work underway. Thank you for all you have shared.

    I think the best way I can express what I am feeling right now about the guide and standard is to say from my heart that I would want anyone who were to read it to only think of Christ. I wouldn't want them to think of me, or of Mormonism, or of a church (traditional) or any religion, or of Denver even. I would want them to only think of their Saviour, and become curious about Him, desire to seek Him.

    I know that sounds counter to what we are trying to accomplish, but it is what I cry for at this point.

    I trust Christ above all others. I know He is near and ever mindful of me. He knows better than anyone what is in my heart. He is able to lead me as no other can or should. I am the one who struggles to hear and obey. He is faithful. We are each here in this moment because of Him and Him alone. I truly believe that.

    I am sorry if I disappoint you. I hope you are not feeling frustrated with individuals like Jared and I. I believe we all are trying sincerely to hear, discern, and obey Christ. I will continue to pray we learn how to do that with hearts full of His love for one another. God bless you, Lisa. Thank you for sharing. Lori

  28. No I am not frustrated with you at all. We are all seeking to do the right thing. I think the basic intentions are good. And I don’t have a problem disagreeing. Denver did say in one of his talks, I think it was the one in Texas, where he said that the Apostles in Christ’s day basically adopted the Sermon on the Mount and each Apostle emphasized certain areas of the Gospel within the groups they were teaching. We should all listen again, since I think it pertains to what we are doing. But there was someone who was sent from God teaching, an Apostle, a True Messenger.

    I personally like to leave as much room for the Spirit to teach as possible. So I am not far away from the view that you and Jared hold.

    However, there is also the way in which we go about the process. I like the Lot’s version because the Spirit was sweet and respectful. Those participating had a chance to provide input, get to know others better, to work together. Same with the Lot’s process, not all of the direction came from one individual, it was shared. I believe the hand of the Lord was in the process, and I feel impressed that the prayers given and the outcomes were pleasing to the Lord. The Lot’s version clearly has acceptance by a large %, last count over 90%, from what I remember, probably more. I would like for us to have direction from a True Messenger from our day within the G&S. I think those that do not fully have a testimony that Denver is a True Messanger, will not have an easy time going forward. Because he will most likely be the Lord’s mouthpiece for other possibly more difficult tasks. I think the body of our group selected the Lot’s version. The communication coming from that group selected by the Lord to put together the G&S from what others had given was sweet, reverent, peace filled and loving. The communication coming from supporters of other versions were confused, unloving, at times forceful and ridged, definitely not from the Lord.

    So it is not only content that is on the table here. It is the source, and choosing God’s will that is on the line. Can we as a body discern which would please the Lord? Or which would please us?

    If most of the body would change to support just the Sermon on the Mount, I would support it too. I would believe that most of these righteous individuals who have come this far to get to this point are for the most part inspired of God. I would be humble and loving enough to change my support, to change to support what the majority supports, because I have the faith that our fellow remnant saints are capable of making the right choice. If I didn’t think that, then I am in the wrong place. Really

    Love to you all and may the Lord make a way for us to be succeful in the efforts He has charged us with. Lisa

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  30. I understand that to "move forward" without abiding the Lord's requirement for mutual agreement, one must have power to excommunicate dissenters, or define dissenters as outside of the covenant body. There is no authority within the A&C for either of these. As it is written, "what therefore God hath joined, let not man put asunder."

    Therefore it is literally impossible to move forward and do what the Lord said so long as there is dissent to a proposal. And if a G&S is adopted without mutual agreement, then the body shall be unable to accomplish the tasks the Lord shall require of it, as he said in the A&C.

    Since salvation requires not doing just some things the Lord commands, but doing all things whatsoever the Lord commands, the body will not be saved should those who advocate violating the Lord's requirement for mutual agreement successfully suborn the Scripture Committee into forsaking their integrity and publishing a G&S in the scriptures despite their knowledge that the proposal does not meet the Lord's requirement for mutual agreement.

    Zion is not a place for those who say they believe in the Lord and do not do what he says to do.

    Actions have consequences. The only safety is in doing exactly and only what the Lord commands. It is a fair test of the integrity of the body as a whole to require the G&S be adopted by mutual agreement. If this body will not do that, but pretend instead that those who dissent from the majority proposal are not of this body and publish it as the G&S, Zion is not for this body.

    Jared Livesey

  31. If we are believers in Christ, willing to hear Him alone, His words cannot be objectionable on grounds that not enough people had input. Nor can it be claimed that the majority should be followed because they are the majority. Nor can it be claimed that Snuffer is impeded from doing the work given to him if the content of a G&S does not include his words. Nor can it be claimed the the words from the Lord's own mouth are not sufficient ly filled with the Spirit. Also see "Trangularity" in Ten Parables by Denver Snuffer. 😊

    1. Thank you for suggesting the parable "Trangularity," Dani. I just read it. I agree there is something in it for all of us to learn. Wow. Great stuff. I have so much to consider and understand and learn.

  32. It is Jesus Christ that has confirmed Denver’s role to me, more than once. It is His and the Father’s words that I base my testimony. This is after all the Father’s work. He will use many Servants to perform His work. His Servant David/Denver is His Hand sent again the 2nd time. God’s word comes from His True Servant(s). They are the same. To reject God’s true servant(s) is the same as rejecting Him. Many, most of the body realize this, are are aligned with Christ in this knowledge. Please don’t take my word for it. It is simply my testimony. You are free the express yours. We have to be aligned with God and together in Him. We are here because we were gathered. The gathering has been in the works for years. It started for me in 2008 with the Second Comforter book which teaches all how to have an audience with Christ. I’ve been waiting a long time to get where we are now, I have sacrificed all that has been asked of me. I have given up so much to follow this path. As I am sure many have. I see great opportunities for all of us. All of the great prophets of the past have wanted to be right where we are now.

    Question is can we do it? Are we up to it. Who will say, ok let’s try it your way? Who will say, I put my own needs and desires aside? Who will say, maybe I shouldn’t be here if I can’t accept that others may have good ideas too? Who will say maybe I am wrong? I will. Maybe I am wrong. But I would go to my death to support the work that we are now in the midst of. It means that much to me. How much does it mean to you? I know Jesus Christ is loving and kind, He is merciful. I fear one thing, and that is not pleasing Him. I ask His forgiveness for anything that I have said that has not been in perfect alignment with His will. Love, Lisa

    1. I will also offer that I may be in error, Lisa. I have been studying so much these few days--reading Denver's blog from the earliest entries, doing searches of his posts for specific topics or words, reading and re-reading passages of scripture, and other books I have felt drawn to that fit in the big picture. My brain feels like it is melting and my heart is in a constant state of brokenness.

      I have been astonished at what I find on older blog posts of Denver's. Simply astonished. Eight years later those same words mean even more to me. I would encourage all to go backward in time for a little to see what Spirit will speak to you and where your eyes will be opened. I now have more questions than answers and feel troubled.

      May I ask you a question about something you have said more than once? I have heard the same from more than one person and desire to understand why. I have wanted to ask this for a while now, but have been afraid some might think I am accusing when I just want to understand better. It ties into a concern I have over the G&S. Your answer might help me sort out my own thoughts and where we are at.

      On another note, I have been wondering today if it is time we all take our G&S for a test ride. That can mean whichever one we each have felt a confirmation to follow as individuals, as families, and as fellowships. Perhaps we need to experience what fruit it bears out to determine a correct path forward? Thoughts?

  33. I think that is a wonderful idea. I have tomorrow off, I will do it then. And I am open to any and all questions. Nobody should be judging. We are all found lacking.

    1. Thank you, Lisa. You have been wonderful to discuss things with.

      I have been wondering why some people speak of Denver or refer to him often as "His Servant" or "David" or "His Servant David."

      I am not asking from a place of doubt of Denver's role or importance, or because I don't believe he is such.

      But why not simply call him Denver? Does he mind the titles? Do we burden him when we speak of him thus? Is it idolatry, or bordering on idolatry? Does it place him on a pedestal, above the rest of us? In other words, does it create inequality on a fundamental level?

      I did a word search on Denver’s site for idolatry and read through every blog post. I was, once again, astonished by what he has said and how he said it.

      Did the people of Salem refer to Melchizedek as their "Prince of peace" or as their "king" in everyday life, while he was in their midst? I honestly wonder.

      What is the difference between respect and gratitude for the faith and work of one man, and idolatry of him? How does one know when that smidgen of a line has been crossed? Is there a difference between hearkening to a messenger, and following him/her? If so, how do we do the former and not fall into a habit of the latter?

      And is there a potential (risk?) that a G&S filled mostly with the words of a man could set others up to commit idolatry, even if ignorantly?

      Do we have a responsibility to help warn others about idolatry in all its forms? Are we certain we are freed from its chains?

      These things keep me awake at night. Thank you for being open to hearing me. I just want to understand what I am seeing instead of potentially drawing wrong conclusions. Lori

    2. Working on your answers. Trying to bullet them. So give me a bit. Just happened to fall into the answer for Dani. It was like handed to me. But your answer relates to hers. I have to get into more scripture, but the two answers related to each other very well. Haven’t forgotten you.

    3. There is a lot to this, I hope I can do it justice.
      I think Avraham Gileadi was one of the first to pick up on the Davidic Servant being an end time role. I was reading heavily into Denver’s work and Gileadi’s at the same time. Denver had never by that time mentioned that he was the Lord’s Servant David. He said as far as he was concerned, no one could claim the title unless they did the work. But from reading Gileadi and watching Denver, he was to me, doing pretty much what Gileadi said the Servant David would do. So I think I was putting it together a while before Denver ever said that he was the Lord’s Servant David. But that is not how I gained my testimony of it, I was told twice through revelation. There are stories behind the testimony, maybe we will meet someday and I can tell you personally.

      Let me try to explain a more in-depth understanding of the Davidic Servant. There is a lot of information about the Davidic Servant now, I would say study with discernment. Because just about everyone has it wrong on who it is. People will say it is just about anyone.

      According to prophesy, God’s raises up a Davidic king which is his end-time servant. It is similar to God’s raising up King David in response to his people’s need for divine protection. God’s end-time servant, is in essence a temporal messiah, not a spiritual messiah. Jesus is the one and only spiritual messiah and we are saved spiritually by Him and in no other way. The Davidic servant saves us temporally, or keeps us safe physically as long as we will accept him and be taught by him. The Spirit can guide us as to confirming the identity of the Servant and what is necessary to qualify for physical protection under his hand, if we will have an open heart about the matter and real intent.
      Also, check out the book “Ten Parables” by Denver the section on “Five Men from God”, and the answer to Dani’s post below. Pretty interesting.
      Below are some relevant scriptures, by all means this only scratches the surface.
      Nephi 21:10
      10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious.

      D&C 113: 5-6
      5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter [of Isaiah = 2 Nephi 21]?
      6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.
      Rom. 15: 12.
      12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
      Ezek. 34: 23-24
      And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
      And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.
      D&C 85: 7
      And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;
      Isa. 28: 1-3
      Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!
      Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
      The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet.

    4. Now, the first time that I heard Denver mention anything of the name given him by the Lord, it was at a Conference in St. George. Here is his account. 2017.03.19 Q&A St. George General Conference 2017
      Question put to Denver - What is the significance and meaning of the new name David?” Answer: Okay, the advice I got was to not even mention this subject. I wasn't going to do it, but Steph and I will discuss me addressing this question on the drive home. I don't claim anything from having the name. As far as I can tell there's only one way in which it matters to me. I do not claim anything of any significance associated with the revelation of a new name, of the giving of a new name.
      To me, the only things about it that were noteworthy are: I was first baptized on September 10th, I was also excommunicated forty years later on the same date, September 10th, I was also given a new name on September 10th. The September the 10th on which I received a new name, was 9-10-11 and to me that was an interesting alignment.
      The account accurately depicts that I was not happy with the name. To me it was an unwanted, unlovely appellation. Understand, the name David associated with other people is just fine. I know a lot of Davids and I like their name. I have a partner in my law firm whose first name is David. David is a perfectly good name. But the name David when spoken by God suggests to my mind, not my partner or other people I know and respect having that name. When the name is spoken by God, I think of only one individual: That was the ancient king of Israel who, to me, was a moral failure. And so my mind did not run to my partner or to other people I know and love. My mind ran to that man, the king of Israel who murdered Uriah. To me that man and that context is a harbinger of an ill wind, to say the least. So it wasn't wanted.
      The response of the Lord, after I had finished my complaints and I'd worked myself up into an obnoxious and complaining outburst. The Lord’s response was so mild, but cutting, that I thought it reflected so well on Him, that when I was told this has to be included in the scripture project, I thought it reflected great credit on the Lord.
      I was willing to go to the grave with no one knowing a thing about the new name. I thought that for the most part the entire way in which that unfolded, reflected credit upon the Lord and showed you how a master teacher can convey, in the mildest of ways, a cutting rebuke to teach. I needed to be taught. His mild rebuke contrasts with my ingratitude, complaining and upset. He was gracious to the inappropriate and ungrateful man He addressed. That contrast shows His brilliance. I think that is the meaning of the event.
      Now, I don't make any claim for anything beyond that. ——————End

      This is posted on the internet, so I don’t think it will be a problem posting it here. I think it will be in the new scriptures as well.
      On another point - The Boise Fellowship Group has done an amazing job archiving the library. You can find just about anything remnant here.

    5. Here is my take on Denver- mine only - I think the above answer shows a pretty humble reaction to a pretty awesome blessing. To my knowledge, no one calls him David. I asked at the last Conference I attended, what should I call him and the answer from someone who knew him better was to call him Denver. I have been around Denver a few times, he is not the kind of person that goes around shaking hands. (Like the G.A.s) He does not call attention to himself at all. The last thing he wants is to be made an idol of. That is 100% truth. It’s kind of hard to speak to him, he runs away. But it is to take the attention off of himself and keep it on the message, where it should be. Messengers are generally not who you would think they would be. They are like the prophets of old in the scriptures, just regular folks. Slow to speech (not dumb, they just would rather be doing something else), they may have had a few hiccups in their past (like Alma the Younger) providing some hard won lessons resulting in meekness, humility, compassion, generally speaking they do not want to stand out in a crowd, and they are always abhorred and persecuted by outsiders and even some of those inside their circles. In the presentation of the Covenant, I think it was the latter remarks, not sure, but he said we must be equal. And he hoped he would be worthy to be found among us. That he would be an equal with us. That is what has to happen. There is a difference between not believing yourself better than someone and on the flip side, lording over people. He will not Lord over us and he does not believe himself better that us, but he still must continue to deliver God’s word. That is his end time mission. He must continue to teach truth. He must still to the work of the latter day David. And we should be supporting him at that work. We have been gathered to do just that. That is what I am doing now.

      The reason I have to be a witness of him, is that he will not be a witness of himself. I don’t know if he ever mentions it. He just continues to do the work. And the work is a great sacrifice. No one would want to do it if they didn’t know it was God that was making the request. It is much easier to hang out with friends, go to the movies, go on vacations, enjoy life. It’s just not going to look the same at some point, unfortunately. So work has to be done to prepare the people who will listen. Matthew 24 – Same thing, different time.

      All that said, means we have a choice to make - to accept, listen, learn and act accordingly, or reject, close our hearts, dissent, dispute and fight against Zion. It is up to us. No compulsion at all.

      As we go forward, it will take more and more spiritual light, humility, faith and sacrifice, if we do not accept Denver now, we sure won’t accept him later. I am just thankful the Lord has sent His hand to teach and protect us. We will definitely need protection! God testifies of Denver to me. But I do not place Denver between God and myself. And Denver definitely does not want to be there, I assure you.

      I am just trying to lay it out. I am not forcing anyone to believe me. I appreciate you asking the question.
      While I was reviewing the Lot’s Guide and Standard and the Sermon on the Mount, Rock of Jesus Christ version, I had some good impressions. Thanks for suggesting that we review them. I will post my impressions soon. I have to go eat now.  And please let me know if you still have a question. There were a lot of questions, but all seemed to be about making an idol out of Denver. That has never been an issue for me. I do love him and Stephanie though. They are awesome! But so are a lot of my other friends.
      Love, Lisa

    6. Thank you for taking so much time to put your thoughts and heart into words. I think I do have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. You have been given a witness through Spirit that Denver is indeed the Davidic Servant spoken of in scripture and believe he and his mission must be testified of, to awaken others to the perils of our day. Did I get that right?

      I am grateful to know people are mindful of not making an idol of Denver. I feel it may be difficult for some, almost like a slippery slope type exercise not to fall back into when one's life has been immersed in a culture that makes idols of everything and everyone.

      There is so much to be grateful for and to do still yet. I hope we can learn to peaceably work together alongside Denver, even if we still disagree at times.

      I will read that parable you shared, too. There are so many ideas and truths taught in that little book. It is good to revisit it, along with all the others Denver has written.

      God bless you, Lisa, and thank you for helping me understand. :) Lori <3

    7. Thanks Lori, You have a beautiful spirit. It is so nice to be able to discuss topics without guile or dissension. I have been reading, specifically the Lot’s version of the G&S and the Sermon on the Mount from the scriptures. My mind is weak and I forget easily. I am finding much to love in the Lot’s version, even more than I had in the past, largely because of our exchanges on this thread. One thing I really loved is that it says in the Lot’s G&S

      The Lord said, Although a man or woman may err in understanding (me or you) concerning many things, yet he or she can view his brother or sister with charity then your brother’s or sister’s error in understanding will not divide you. Study to learn to respect your brothers and sisters and to come together by precept, reason and persuasion rather than sharply disputing and wrongly condemning each other, causing anger. I love that, we may have differences and I am sure we do, we are different people with different experiences and backgrounds, but those differences do not have to divide us. The Lord said so.

      You know, I am not in a Fellowship at the moment due to distance restrictions. But if we are going back to the ancient way of doing things, meeting in homes, having services, prayers, etc. It seems to stand to reason, that the experiences that others have had meeting in Fellowships, along with the guides that have come by revelation from Denver, Joseph Smith, or the scriptures should be included in the G&S.
      Another part I liked in the Lot’s G&S was this statement - This part comes from Denver -
      God alone will establish Zion. His instructions are vital and necessary for us. Once He instructs us, the Scriptures can then be used to confirm that His direction to us now is consistent with what He prophesied, covenanted and promised would happen. But the path to Zion is to be found only by following God’s immediate commands to us. That is how He will bring it. He will lead us there. Zion and the New Jerusalem are a place, occupied by covenant people, and not something an individual can be or become. People who gather there will all need to be individually redeemed, individually penitent, individually connected to God, but will only belong to the community if they belong to the covenant and area of one heart and one mind and have all things in common between and among them (so there is more to it than individual righteousness) - using only the Sermon on the Mount, you do not get this beautiful instruction pertinent to our immediate situation that we find ourselves in. I think that would be very sad. :(.

      I personally have a difficult time with scripture language, I need a G&S that is written in the language of our day to fully understand what is expected. But that is just me.

    8. I do have an undeniable testimony that Denver is the Davidic Servant, which I believe most people that have received the Covenant do. At the beginning of the Lot’s G&S it says this- We as a people (in the Covenant) therefore stand as witnesses to the word of Jesus Christ in our day (in our day emphasized) and declare as truth and with sober ness that God has set His hand yet again (His hand is referring expressly to God’s Servant Denver/David) to call His people to labor in preparing the way for Jesus Christ’s return. (The Servant calls his people to labor) We invite all who receive this witness to come and learn of His ways.

      Without these understandings, it is really not a guide and standard for us in our day, with what is happening right now.
      I understand the feelings associated with blindly placing faith in the brethren and how that turned out. I think we will all be super cautious to not make that error again. Even Denver himself defended the brethren to the Lord, so he was burned as well. But we cannot fear making an error, because fear is not of God. It is of Satan. As you I’m sure already know.

      Please seek a testimony about the Davidic Servant being Denver, and keep up the study. I love how you put your heart into it. Let’s agree to disagree and for now part in love to continue to seek further knowledge and inspiration. It was a pleasure to get to know you a little. Hopefully we can do it more at some point in the future. Please let me know if you have any further questions, I am not a scripture scholar, but the Lord blesses me with knowledge through the Spirit. God bless you and have a great weekend!
      Love, Lisa

  34. Very good questions Lori. I have answers. Will respond tomorrow. I would like to revisit some of the material we have been discussing to enhance my own understanding. Like you I am constantly in search of truth. Thanks so much for asking. I think it is the source of much confusion.

  35. Miss Lisa,

    I just want to get on here and clarify that I am not your enemy. I hope my direct manner doesn't make you think otherwise. I want you to know that did fast on the 14th,as you had requested of this group, and it was fruitful, so in that I thank the Lord and any of this body that brought faith to that day. I hope peace will descend upon all of us.

  36. Hi Dani,
    No, I don’t take offence. It wasn’t my idea to fast, that was another sister, but I commented after her. Anything we can do and any sacrifice we can make is important because we really need all the help we can get. I don’t usually put myself out here, I am usually in the background, I don’t like being in front of people. In his last talk (as I understood it), Denver mentioned that there has not been enough patience, persuasiveness or kindness in our exchanges. There has still been too much dispute. I feel it a burden to do what I can, because I dearly want us to succeed. Plus the Spirit gave me a not so subtle nudge.

    I read the section you suggested in the 10 Parables called Triangularity. I do agree with you. We should have a one to one communication with God. In truth we should be intimate with Him, He should be our friend. I now have this relationship with Him, mostly, I could probably say exclusively because of reading the book, The Second Comforter. Denver pointed me to Christ. He shared (in the book) experiences with me that I could never have understood by reading the scriptures. The verbiage (language) of the scriptures is somewhat hard for me to understand. He never suggested I or anyone else make of him an idol. He loathes even the thought of that. That would damn all of us. That’s not the goal.

    While I was getting the 10 Parables down from the shelf, it came open to the parable Five Men from God. The title interested me since it seem to be the very substance of what we have been discussing. And also somewhat of an answer to the quandray on which we have been disagreeing. God does that with me a lot. Please read. I had to read it a few times, but I believe the answer is clear. God does send men and we mostly do not accept them, in fact we usually kill them.

    However, God, his 5 messengers and those who chose to be with them (which were few), not idolize them, not worship them, not trust in them for their Spiritual salvation. God said, I have sent you 5 witnesses of my power to bless mankind, all under vow. Why do you disbelieve my mercy when I have honored all those, even those who failed in the vow with blessings for the vow’s sake? We, as a rule, don’t like any messenger who God’s sends. God says, You cannot be pleased”. As for you, you can go away unwarned, uncounseled, untaught, and unprepared against the day. And mankind was pleased with God’s saying, thinking themselves freed from a great burden. Yet they assumed the burden to live without God in the world. (Not what I want)

    God, his five messangers and those who chose to be with them, departed and lived in peace: which pleased them. (Yep, that’s for me)

    I think it is interesting that the two parables are both in the book, but they seem to contradict one another, if you choose to believe you can only be with Christ and not a man sent by Him, who has made vows with him.

    I believe you can do both. I am doing it now. I pray that you will find answers in the parable.

    Thanks for participating in the discussion.
    Love, Lisa

  37. From Question 4 of the A&C:

    [D]o you covenant to seek to become of one heart with those who seek the Lord to establish His righteousness?

    Modern dictionary definitions of words and phrases in context:

    Seek[1] = work to achieve something
    Heart = the seat of emotion and feeling
    Seek[2] = Search for someone
    Establish = achieve permanent acceptance or recognition for a set of rules
    Righteousness = the quality of being in accord with divine law, freedom from guilt or sin

    We each covenanted to work to have the same feelings as those who search for the Lord that they may achieve permanent acceptance and recognition of his law and commandments.

    Or, in other words, we each covenanted to work to be united with those who keep, teach, and work for the permanent recognition and acceptance of the Lord's law and commandments.

    Jared Livesey

  38. For we seek the Lord by keeping his law and commandments, and if we will do that, he says he will come to us and bring the Father to us.

    John 14:21-24
    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

    D&C 130:3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

    JST Matt 5:21-22
    21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven.

    22 For I say unto you, except your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    D&C 82:10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

    Jared Livesey

  39. And his law and commandments are the Sermon.

    Jared Livesey

  40. And adopting The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles as the G&S would, on its face, constitute permanent recognition and acceptance of the Lord's law and commandments by the covenant participants.

    Jared Livesey

  41. Here is the statement found in the Lot’s G&S which I believe quite a few of us are on board with - We as a people, therefore stand as witnesses to the work of Jesus Christ in our day and declare as truth and with soberness that God has set His hand (Denver/David) to call His people to labor (His hand calls us to labor) in preparing the way for Jesus Christ’s return. We invite all who receive this witness to come and learn of His ways.

    Also in the Lot’s G&S - A&C pg 8 - Although a man may err in understanding concerning many things, yet he can view his brother with charity, and come unto me and through me, he can with patience overcome the world.

    Therefore, if you regard one another with charity then your brother’s error in understanding will not divide you. Study to learn how to respect your brothers and sisters and to come together by precept, reason and persuasion rather than sharply disputing and wrongly condemning each other, causing anger.

    My belief is that these timely and profound statements are meant for us in our day and deserve, and even need to be in our Guide and Standard.

    One more that we would not have, if we adopted the Rock of Jesus Christ.
    This is from Denver-
    God alone will establish Zion, His instructions are vital and necessary for us. Once He instructs us, the Scriptures can then be used to confirm that His direction to us now is consistent with what He prophesied, covenanted and promised would happen. But the path to Zion is to be found only by following God’s immediate commands to us. That is how He will bring it. He will lead us there. Zion and the New Jerusalem are a place, occupied by covenant people, and not something an individual can be or become. People who gather there will all need to be individually redeemed, individually penitent, individually connected to God, but will only belong to the community if they belong to the covenant and are of one heard and one mind and have all things in common between and among them.

  42. I see your point and I understand it completely. It is my belief that because of errors of the past, there may be fear and because of that fear you may have placed yourself in a box. It is a good box, but a box no less. Fear is not of God. If I am in error, I apologize. However, I say to you best of luck in your efforts to adopt the G&S that you feel safe with.

    I prefer one I can learn how to participate in a fellowship, one that will help me with what we are doing today, and one that will teach me how to some day come to live in a Zion Community, where God can live among us. I prefer a G&S in my own language, not is ancient scripture language, which is hard for an Engineering mind like mine to understand. The Rock of Jesus Christ does not address with specificity any of the points that I have listed that are addressed in the Lot’s G&S.

    God asked us to reason together. The Lot’s G&S was available for all to comment, exchange ideas, build on a topic, take away from a topic, make suggestions, recategorize, define, etc., that is my understanding of working and reasoning together. We reasoned a lot about the material in the Lot’s G&S, for the most part, it was a very polite exchange of ideas. The Lot’s G&S is the only one where all truly had an opportunity to reason together. It gives just enough direction to allow the Spirit to guide, does not list out a lot of performances to be strictly kept one particular way or the other. I like that.

    I am just trying to explain to you why I hold the opinion that we should adopt the Lot’s version that had over 90% acceptance of the body, I think the number is much higher now. And why I think The Lot’s version is better. I love the Sermon on the Mount, The Lot’s version has the Sermon on the Mount and The Sermon at Bountiful in it. It also contains the Doctrine of Christ. So it is all contained in the Lot’s version anyway. There is just some items that are more pertinent to our day included that are needed to help facilitate the Fellowships. That will be helpful for the new people coming among us.

    So I tried my best, although it may not have been enough, I think the exchanges were charitable.

    Therefore, if you regard one another with charity then your brother’s or sister’s error in understanding WILL NOT DIVIDE YOU. Study to learn how to respect your brothers and sisters and to come together by precept, reason and persuasion rather than sharply disputing and wrongly condemning each other, causing anger.
    I just love that statement!

    Log I hope things work out for your brother. God bless you!
    Love, Lisa

  43. The lesson we should have learned from the Church: Where It All Went Wrong

    It seems that the lesson has not been heeded.

    Jared Livesey

  44. I'm not sure how to propose an idea to continue working on a guide afresh. There is a significant spark missing from each and every proposal put forth, and that is effort to breach into the heavens, to become precisely what God is, as Joseph Smith last called the first principles of the gospel.

    The first G&S proposals all begin with a Campbellite emphasis, a restorative effort, ...only with a Mormon twist, where hierarchy is there, but no one wants to hold the blame of controlling the perceived outcomes. None of us want to be Brigham, but we are still trying to forward efforts through a quorum, wether claiming a calling from Denver, or a majority. The only progress that came from the lots was that an effort was made to level the playing field. The content never changed in it's foundation when compared to the other documents. However, they instead resorted to tapping into the confidence of others, quoting men without doubt, to justify their own insecurity. But each, including Jared Livesey's suggestion, fails to preserve the restoration Joseph Smith established, or even touches upon the grandness of the concepts introduced by Denver, in order to complete the work of Elias and move forward in the work of Elijah. None of it describes who we worship or how we worship, as John the Beloved described. All anyone has ever done was to propose yet another box, institution, or manual.

    Where's the spark of life, the reason, the purpose behind what we do? Joseph's King Follet discourse, delivered several months before his death addressed who we worship, and how we worship, and why Denver's words had any magnetism for all of us to sacrifice what we have sacrificed. It will also be the spark that will produce the ultimate sacrifice of all things.

    I am in an effort to make a new proposal, as I have said before, in the direction of J Smith's K Follet discourse, Denver's effort to preserve the restoration. But am technologically unaware of posting it here, or anywhere else. And I would like some help.

    Rob Adolpho

    1. Rob, if you want it submitted here on the blog send your proposal in an email to with your request to have it posted. The Scripture Committee folks control what is posted here. New proposals or ideas are placed in the side bar.

    2. Thank you. I'll use your suggestion.

    3. Hi Rob, Some points for pondering. No dispute here.
      I think the spark that you speak of is found in the Lot’s G&S here- it speaks of our individual qualification to transcend this world.
      This is from Denver- and in the Lot’s G&S
      “God alone will establish Zion, His instructions are vital and necessary for us. Once He instructs us, the Scriptures can then be used to confirm that His direction to us now is consistent with what He prophesied, covenanted and promised would happen. But the path to Zion is to be found only by following God’s immediate commands to us. That is how He will bring it. He will lead us there. Zion and the New Jerusalem are a place, occupied by covenant people, and not something an individual can be or become, People who gather there will all need to be individually redeemed, individually penitent, individually connected to God, but will only belong to the community if they belong to the covenant and are of one heart and one mind and have all things in common between and among them”.

      We can all have our individual ways, but we will not be part of the community if we insist on our own individual wants and desires. The statement says we have to be individually redeemed, penitent and connected to God. Then as a community become one, because we have God’s heart as a result of our personal redemption and connection with God. Do we really need to breach the heavens with the G&S, or is the purpose of the G&S to gather in our Fellowship’s to teach people to individually breach the heavens in their own relationship with God.

      In my view, the spark is in the doing, not the talking about or even writing about. We are adopting a G&S so people can enter among us and fellowship, we will grow in fellowship as we receive baptism, the Covenant, fully repent, follow God’s commandments to us, study the new scriptures, partake of the Sacrament, all these elements are in the Lot’s G&S. Do we really need something flashy and sparky? It seems like to me we need to love each other enough to trust that when we all work on something together and come up with resultant document, we can all support each other in that we have enough spirit between us to produce something that pleases the Lord. Everything else is a mute point. Is it possible that any proposal we don’t all have an opportunity to work together on, does not fit the instructions given for the creation of the G&S. (Zion is not something an individual can be or become.) Individual efforts are for personal qualification, not community guidelines and standards. Please take my comments with love and regard for our necessary success and my desire for inclusion and fairness, truth and unity. It seems that everytime a new suggestion is offered, we get further away from an agreement. Are we going to go off on individual efforts continually everytime each one of us thinks they can do things better? That could go on forever. Is it worth the possiblily for failure? Especially when we have a document acceptable to the Lord in our hands. That is the question. Peace be unto you brother, and God bless each of us in our efforts to find unity and please the Lord. Thanks, Love, Lisa

    4. Lisa,

      I understand that Denver has been instructed to not participate. It seems an appropriate test for the rest of us to generate the words from our understanding, or, as you have pointed out, ...from our experience. Quoting things correctly is significantly less than exemplifying mutual agreement. The covenant is to be proven by how we perform our assignments. While the words indicating a spark may be used in the lots proposal, it did not come from them, nor did it come from us, ...and it puts the accountability on the one who wrote it, rather than on those who are given the assignment (you and I).

      Using Joseph Smith's words does precisely the same thing, giving Joseph the accountability, when we are the ones being tested here. Joseph was unable to move from the spirit of Elias, to the spirit of Elijah, because the people would not receive what Joseph offered. Their (the early saints) chance to prove true and faithful resulted in jarrings, etc. Joseph is dead, and this work is to be performed by the living. Quoting Joseph is not the same as being Joseph's. Likewise, quoting Denver is not the same as being Denver's. Receiving the covenant is not merely responding with a strong, deep, "YES!" It requires that we be the spirit of Elias. The saints at Bountiful, at Christ's time, prayed, not repetitiously, not quoting previous Nephi quotes, or Helaman quotes, or Zenock quotes, ...but the content of their prayer had the same patterns. What I mean is, they had the same heart as those previous covenanted fathers, so it was unnecessary to name-drop. They were accountable for their words. And they were able to pray those words, not because they had great memory recollection, but because the words of the ancient fathers were written upon their hearts, thus it was not vain repetition (repetition that is ineffective).

      The lots proposal does recognize that both Denver and Joseph Smith are men without doubt. But, using their words, and having confidence in their lack of doubt is not the same as you or I having no doubt. If we are to write, it ought to be our words, squarely placing ourselves accountable for knowing and acting as we know, rather than riding the coat-tails of two men who have been removed from participation (Joseph by death, and Denver by God's instruction).

      Rob Adolpho

    5. So Rob, this new proposal you are currently helping craft, what do you feel it will offer to persuade everyone to accept it? That seems to be the struggle, right? It does not seem to be too much of a challenge for someone or a group to craft a statement of principles...but getting everybody to support it is a whole nuther issue.

      I don't know where we go from here, but I sure do not want to keep re-creating the wheel for us to roll round and round upon. I'm dizzy at this point.

      What you call spark I would call heart, and I get what you are trying to say, I think. I a point. My desire to use Christ's words is because of how I feel about His life and work, what He means to me, what He has done for me and continues yet to do. I read His words and I feel His heart; it's how I recognize His voice when He speaks through another like Denver. I bet we each could write up our testimonies of and love for Him and they would all be different yet powerful in their own, unique way--as we each are unique. But they would not sound the same, though the unifying Thread would be Christ Himself.

      But can we write a simple statement we all accept as a guide and standard for ourselves that keeps our focus upon Him, and not us, not Denver, not Joseph, not the LDS church? I simply cannot imagine anything but having His heart and life as my guide and standard.

      And using His words as my guide and standard for life sets the bar by which I say I am willing to be judged, and it is already what He requires of me; it's already what I have covenanted to do, albeit poorly as I limp along. I just do not see why I would or should say it all differently, in my own words, how that makes it more of me? I am a poor example for anyone to follow, and goodness, I don't want anyone doing that! FOLLOW HIM! By doing exactly what He has already said to do.

      Okay, thoughts? I want to understand what you are thinking and seeing. Maybe I am misunderstanding.

    6. et lux en tenebris lucet,

      This is probably not your name, but I do understand your request. Concerning the need to persuade, I'll respond this way. The concept of persuading has taken the form of campaigning and marketing, which I refuse to do. A friend of mine said that light is like a bug, if you have been bitten, your are responsible for sharing it. Denver has done nothing to campaign, market, or pitch his product. We have been bitten, and we are now responsible for carrying that light and sharing it. If what I write is unable to add light to the matter, and finds itself regurgitating the same concepts as the other documents, it ought to be treated just the same. But, persuasion and pure knowledge that greatly enlarges the soul requires much more than what is currently being presented, as it neither persuades nor enlarges my soul. However, if that is being offered, ...everyone will be accountable to recognize it, accept it or reject it, ...but if they reject it, they'll do it at their own peril.

      It is my personal understanding that Denver is removed from the task, so that we can rise up.

      I understand your being dizzy at this point because all statements seem to be recreating the wheel. I recommend that you take a break and gather your senses by listening to the Gethsemane podcast. Every time I do, I feel closer to Christ, and hope centers in me. I recommend it to offset your dizziness.

      Concerning the assignment to write, some have assumed that if our hearts where right it would be a light thing, meaning "not heavy." Recently, I have discovered that a light thing is not referencing weight at all. The Lord said, "Let their be light, and it was light." The creation of unorganized matter into organized matter happened as light was introduced. Just as heat transfers to a colder body as a law of thermodynamics, light always travels from a brighter body to a darker body. Each day of creation was infusion of light from a higher body to a lesser body. Moroni, in 3 Nephi 26 offered a lesser portion of the word, but he had access to the greater portion, to guide the lesser portion. Lehi read the book of life, the greater portion, and then told his sons to get the brass plates, the lesser portion. The lesser portion of the word is always guided by the greater portion.

      While the documents among us now reflect common knowledge from the lesser portion of the word, it is not anchored in the greater portion of the word. It is not enough that we use commonly understood words, it must point to the greater portion of the word. If it is unable to do just that (point to the greater portion of the word), it is just another obstacle of unbelief we will have to justify for generations to come, because it does not have sufficient power to assist anyone in obtaining salvation.

      There isn't much time. That means we must do in less time what Enoch did in 360 years. If that work is going to be done in less time, more light is necessary from God to get it done, and that is why I have the position I do concerning the "light thing." Only by the infusion of light will we be able to accomplish the task that is before us.

      Does that help? If not, call me, and lets talk about it. But I have no idea what your name is, so, in advance, sorry if I hang up on you thinking you're a foreign salesman from India, wanting to help me fix my Microsoft Windows virus.

      Rob Adolpho

    7. Hi Rob,
      It’s Lisa, you and I are clearly at two different levels intellectually. I could hardly understand what you said, I had to read your response a couple of times to comprehend. So if you wrote the G&S, I am sure I would not have a clue what I was supposed to do, and that is the truth. I am not being funny or critical here. I am just plain folk. There are maybe 3 or 400 of us, how would we agree on what we one or two of us said. We can’t even agree to what we all said, that we all agreed on already. :)

      I listened to Denver’s new podcasts and although he is not supposed to be involved with the creation of a G&S, it seemed that he was saying that we may be diverse where our own fellowships are concerned. You can be in the brainy fellowship. :). I want to be in the love fellowship. Lori can be in the nothing but Christ fellowship. So what ties them all together. You could say it is the Doctrine of Christ. Or you could say it is the Sermon on the Mount. But are those really enough to portray what we are doing now? I would say that Denver has been the guiding element for our day, as Joseph was in his, and even though I want to agree and want to finish this up, I still think the Lot’s G&S represents just the basics, Doctrine of Christ, Sermon on Mount and Bountiful, Sacrament, Teaching of our children, a reference to the new work of the hand sent to establish Zion, taking care of the poor, and it is in today’s language, and it is tied to the New Covenant. It is very basic and it dosen’t lay out too much specifically, leaving room for each fellowship to emphasize or devise what they feel is best for them, as long as it is truth. We all had the opportunity to work on it, so the bulk of the group should support it. Isn’t is supposed to be a Guide and a Standard of what we have already been doing? Isn’t that the point, to help others know what we have already been doing? Do we want to change things up now, because our own personal preferences?

      Denver also said that some would not fit into a Zion way of doing things. One heart, one mind, equal in all things, no poor among them. That’s where I want to be. That is in my heart. So I think the choice is an individual one. If I have to change a little to fit in, then I will gladly do so. If we all change a little bit, it might be enough. I think we are all good people with the best motives. We may have to sacrifice to come into alignment. I would be happy to sacrifice, I am used to it by now. :(

      I am sticking with the Lot’s proposal and hope all the votes and the peace are still there. Flowery words are not necessary. Just words that convey a common thread for us to build upon. I think we at least need a basic structure that outlines what we have already been doing in the Fellowships. Otherwise the work going on today, which is significant, will be lost.

      I think the conversation is good, at least it can help us think about what we are doing and it brings things into the light, where they should be.
      Thanks for being my brothers and sisters,
      Love, Lisa

    8. Lisa,

      I would never get in-between your conversation with yourself, so please don't let me interrupt. It seems as though you have a lot going on in your mind, and that is not a bad thing. You should feel free to support the lots program, without feeling that you need to justify your reasons with me. I feel that you are an intelligent person, and self deprecation does not fit the idea of a simple mind. Don't sell yourself short. You're better than that.

      Concerning my opinion, I offered it in response to request alone. I refuse to campaign, market, or convince. Light and truth alone is what brought us all here, therefore it will be the only thing that will unite our efforts. My purpose for posting was to ask how a guy could propose something different, and you were kind enough to answer. I thanked you, and went on my way. My only response was to answer your question, not to get you to do like me.

      Isolated keyboarding has the potential of creating a false idea in our minds that we understand one another, and that we are laboring, when in fact it's just a lazy substitute for real relationships. Given our circumstances, I do value the convenience the digital exchange provides, but it's a horrible tool to do the labor of truly understanding one another. I blame the tool for the problem, not the people.

      You have made a statement to disagree with my mindset, not because it is incorrect or unappealing, etc. But because it is a new concept that you didn't quite understand. I think that you didn't understand, not because I am studious and you are simple minded, as you portrayed it. I think that it took you a while because you don't know me. And that has been the problem at every turn in this project. We have sought to finish a project in mutual agreement without being in mutual agreement.

      Marriages can look like all is well, simply because we do not fight. Simply not fighting changes a marriage into roommates, it doesn't make a marriage eternal by any means. Sure, roommates can pay bills, conceive and raise children, purchase a house, and develop many hobbies. But a marriage depends on a relationship. This effort is no different. A conversation would be a better way to assess wether you agree or not, ...but that is my opinion.

      We cannot be followers of men. Our responsibility is to be familiar with light, so that when light is offered, it is received and not rejected. The test is upon us now, to determine our ability to recognize light, when the source that has produced so much light (Denver) has been removed. Hastily disregarding an opinion might result in dismissing more light.

      I might not know you, as Lisa is a common name. But you seem to be someone I would enjoy conversing with.

      Rob Adolpho

    9. Hi Rob. I am sorry if I have created some confusion by not leaving my name at the end of my comments each time. This is Lori Taylor. Haha, fortunately or unfortunately I sound like your average white American woman, who tends to resemble a miniature Mt. Vesuvius when she both writes and speaks. I’m either dormant or spewing all over the place.

      Thank you for letting me know that the podcasts are live. I had not seen them just yet. I took your advice and listened to Gethsemane and Fellowship Diversity last night. I had even listened to all three talks to Christians as well as re-read the Gethsemane chapter from Come, Let Us Adore Him over the weekend. Soul affirming and enlarging Light that stuff is. I cried.

      You have a gift for teaching. I do understand what you are saying about light, and that our time is limited. And I thank you for helping me look at persuasion differently. Good thoughts. What do you consider as the “greater portion of the word?” I recall you mentioning the King Follett sermon in previous comments elsewhere.

      I thought of The Word—Christ, that greater portion you mentioned, or as I thought, Greater Portion. It would be wonderful to read a statement that lights me up the way the scriptures do or the way pure revelation does as I am turned to Christ in all things.


    10. Hi Rob, It’s Lisa again. Lori was the one helping you with presenting your new idea. I was not trying to justify my own beliefs. I was trying to persuade you not to inject another option into the mix. Haha. Presenting the good points of your position is a way of persuasion. And I am sure we will have an opportunity to meet in person. We are all following the light, so we should end up in the same place at some point in time, even if only temporarily at first.

      I don’t attribute my understanding to my brain or intellect at all. I am old and I don’t retain what I read as well as I used too. And I forget most of what I retain. So most of my knowledge comes from the Spirit. When the Spirit gives it to you, you don’t forget.

      So back to the original question. I don’t understand why you feel we need something more than we already have. Were you able to participate in the Lot’s version when it was online? Did you contribute then? What were your feelings about the Lot’s process and the group of 7 that assembled the final document? Did you believe the prayer of acceptance of the Lot’s document was from the Lord? Just trying to figure out why so many accept it, but a few still reject. We are supposed to be persuading, is that the same as marketing? I don’t feel that I am selling a box of soap. But I would like to help people see why I have the views I do, so maybe others can see something they might have missed. Or see something in a little different way. We tend to get stuck in our own paradigms, including me. I am waiting for someone to persuade me. I am fair game.

      Love you guys! Lisa

    11. Lisa,

      I do not believe the lots effort as an expression of my faith. The result is very similar to all the other documents, with a couple of new features added: a system of casting lots and a formalized answer reflecting Denver's answer to covenant. Despite the new features, the document is still the same. Some have told me that "All of the documents could have been accepted of God." And that is why the answer states that it is enough. For me, the content from previous documents were incomplete, and the lots document is no different.

      What I am doing here is not an effort to persuade at all. I am simply responding to your questions. persuasion requires time to learn and understand one another, and results in a relationship. Denver invested the time, money and effort to persuade by writing books, giving talks, and constantly adding light. We have been persuaded by him as we have read, pondered, and understood him. Yet, we haven't paid the same respect to one another, presenting topics, or understanding what others have presented. Persuasion isn't what people think it is.

      Persuasion is easily confused with campaigning and marketing, but it isn't that at all. Persuasion must be coupled with pure knowledge that greatly enlarges the soul, and without hypocrisy or guile (deception). It is insufficient to isolate persuasion, because when the context of pure knowledge that greatly enlarges the soul, without hypocrisy or guile is removed, ...foolish traditions of marketing and campaigning rule the day. Just the same, self deprecation is often confused with humility, when humility fits better with confidence. Someone exhibiting confidence, however, is often mistaken for being prideful. Persuasion is NOT what I am doing here. This is a poor vehicle for that. All I am doing is simply responding to your questions.

      If we are to resolve concerns and work out kinks, this is a horrible place to do it. That work requires a vehicle that builds relationships, in an environment where all can be understood. This is not it. So if you'd like to get some persuasion-action, that would require a person to person conversation. It would be real-time, in one another's presence, allowing the spirit of the participants to interact. Expecting to do that in a blog setting, limiting the amount of characters allowed, reduced to a maximum of four lines at a time, in between long pauses, requiring vocabulary skills to suffice to convey and understand messages, is a recipe for disaster. This forum cannot produce relationships. That is the work that has been ignored throughout this whole process, and our interactions show it.

      Perhaps we will have a chance in the future to persuade one another, within the context of pure knowledge that greatly enlarges the soul, without the attributes of hypocrisy and guile involved.

      By the way, to me, your age has no weight in the matter.


      Rob Adolpho

    12. Lori (Part 1 of 2),

      Moroni referred to the lesser portion and the greater portion of the word. In chapter 1 of 1Nephi, Lehi reads the book of life, but says little about it's contents to his sons, and has his sons retrieve the brass plates. Lehi probably taught through the lesser portion of the word, finding confidence in his understanding, because he was anchored in the greater portion of the word found in the Book of Life. Nephi, in the second chapter, is found seeking after the mysteries (v16), he cries to the Lord, and the Lord visits him. However, it isn't until chapter 11 that Nephi experiences his own ascent, and becomes anchored in the greater portion of the word, like Lehi. 2Nephi is the record of Nephi, and he follows the example of Lehi, using Isaiah quotes (a lesser portion of the word), to point the minds of the readers to the greater portion of the word. It is the same pattern Jacob uses, when he uses the words of Zenock. What I am saying is that what is written in our small Guide and Standard ought to be anchored, or couched, within the greater portion of the word.

      You asked if King Follet is the greater portion? I believe that Joseph Smith taught that sermon anchored in the greater portion of the word, and that King Follet is probably the best reflection of the greater portion of the word, from Joseph. However, Alma 12:9 states that the totality of the greater portion of the word cannot be shared freely, and it is kept hidden for a wise purpose.

    13. (Part 2 of 2)

      If 1Nephi 3:7 is true, God has commanded, therefore He has provided a way for us to accomplish the thing He commanded. Since He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, ...we can bet on the fact that the solution will be an infusion of light, thus making this a "light thing." But, from the answer to the covenant, our hearts are not right, for if they were right it would have been a "light thing." And, in my opinion, we would all be enlightened.

      Thus far, the documents that have been proposed reflect the Campbelite effort of the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, that got Joseph Smith side-tracked in the first place. More importantly, the light offered within those documents are not anchored in the greater portion of the word in it's use, and for that reason it is dead to me, and only offers death. I have been seeking further light and knowledge concerning this matter, and I sense Dan Campbel's concepts enlightening, regarding the King Follet Discourse (KFD). It has captured my heart so much that I have found Denver's Ephraim talk on Christ composed of KFD. I was just informed that Denver's book of the three essays are composed of KFD as well. And elements within the Holy Order talk is couched in the KFD.

      Do I think that the KFD is the greater portion of the word Moroni is referring to? No. But, I sense the light coming from that direction, and it is growing in me. Besides, on page 107 of Preserving the Restoration, Denver states that if we do not pick up where Joseph left off, preserving what he established, God will not continue the restoration. But, if we did, God would finish it with us.

      I think that this portion (the success of the G&S) would conclude the Elias portion of the work, placing a completion seal upon this phase, ...allowing us to move forward to the Elijah phase. It is insufficient to be required to simply agree, just to be agreeable. That is not the same as mutual agreement to me. We must also not contend, but that doesn't give those with a majority support to go ahead with their document either, justified by removing the opposing resistance. Disagreeing is not contention. We might find ourselves in a deadlock, but a deadlock is only an indicator to stop, and do the work of relationships, understanding one another, praying for more light to be added, to overcome the deadlock. When it is given, all will benefit.

      In my opinion we all must hold ourselves accountable to add more light, sufficient light to dispel the darkness that maintains the distance between us, causing this deadlock. No one should be required to compromise, but every should expect to be enlightened. In this manner it will be a "light thing." And we will be more capable of greater tasks ahead, having developed this muscle together.

      Mahalo for the exchange and considering my suggestion to listen to the talks. I totally understand what you expressed because I had a very similar experience. Praise God for that light being added. Lets follow the example set there to add more light here, so that the same feelings we have felt listening to Denver, can be experienced by those who read and are instructed by what we write in mutual agreement.

      Rob Adolpho

    14. Thanks Rob, I respect your view. All are allowed their own agency in these undertakings. I do disagree about using persuasion and this venue. Denver said in one of his recent responses that no one has taken the time to try and listen to others views and make a good enough case to persuade the other, I took it as my responsibility to try to persuade without dispute. Now admittedly I am no expert or anyone who’s view should be considered any better than another’s. Currently this is the only venue we have. And I am just trying to be hopeful that hearts will be softened and love will prevail. Even if minds aren’t convinced. Loved the interaction we had, even if it was only through written word. The scriptures are written word yet they do a good job at conveying the intentions and hearts of their authors. Peace and love to you brother. I hope we can meet at one of the upcoming events. I will introduce myself as the old person you interacted with in the G&S blog. :)
      Love, Lisa

  45. My position is permanent.

    Jared Livesey

    1. Jared, dude...methinks that is not working in a good, persuasive way...I mean...does that kind of talk work in your personal relationships?

      I'm not poking at you, but it seems you saying that a lot has created a massive gulf between yourself and others, and they have lost interest in even considering what you are really trying to say. I mean, I've seen at least one person reject what you have proposed in the same dogged way. It's like watching tug-of-war...

      What is your end-goal in saying such a thing to a group of people trying to navigate a heretofore unknown realm of mutual agreement? What do you think it will accomplish? I ask in complete sincerity, not at all trying to tear you down. I like what you have shared otherwise and think you have made some valid points that ought to be discussed. I am just concerned that zero progress toward unity is being made overall here.

    2. Lori,

      My end goal is to do all things whatsoever the Lord commands.

      Jared Livesey

  46. This comment has been removed by the author.

  47. Lori suggested we all try abiding our G&Ss and see what happens.

    I have an alternative suggestion. Try abiding The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles, and see what happens.

    How many of us want to feel more spiritually fulfilled and nourished? In the sacramental prayer for the bread, we are promised that if we will keep the Lord's commandments, we may have his spirit to be with us always. Keeping Jesus's commandments is how we love others and the Lord.

    Here are five specific and actionable commandments from the Lord.

    1. If anyone hits you on one cheek, turn the other cheek to him without reviling him (Luke 6:29; Matt 5:39; 3 Nephi 12:39).
    2. If anyone takes your cloak, allow him to have your coat too (Luke 6:29; Matt 5:40; 3 Nephi 12:40).
    3. Give to every person who asks you to (Luke 6:30; Matt 5:42; 3 Nephi 12:42).
    4. Do not ask for your stuff back from anyone who takes it (Luke 6:30).
    5. Lend to everyone who asks, do not ask for it back (#4), and hope that you do not get paid back (Luke 6:34-35; Matt 5:42; 3 Nephi 12:42).

    Can you be more spiritually nourished and fulfilled than to have the spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ with you always?

    Is having his spirit to be with us always worth doing these specific and actionable things?

    What would stop us from always doing these things?

    Can we follow Jesus Christ if we refuse to do these things he said to do?

    Isn't keeping his commandments how we worship Jesus Christ?

    Jared Livesey

  48. Guys, is there ANYTHING that unites us??? I'm beginning to think we each believe in a different Christ...cause we are still yet the Christians of old. Have we just substituted a task for creeds?

  49. The teaching of repentance and faith in God identifies the church of God, and if we are his people, then we have a command to persuade all men unto repentance, according to the Book of Mormon.

    Alma in the Book of Mormon counseled his hearers to trust no man to be their teacher (that is, one who teaches the commandments of God, the keeping of which is repentance) or their minister (that is, one who performs ordinances, like baptism or sacrament) except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.

    If we count that counsel as one of the obligations set forth in the Book of Mormon that we agreed to receive as a covenant, and if we acknowledge the Sermon on the Mount as the law and commandments of God, it follows that those who do not do what Christ said to do in the Sermon ought not be trusted as teachers, nor should we accept ordinances performed by them. They should have no influence over the content of the G&S.

    If we are the people of God, our teaching likewise must be repentance - obedience to the commandments of Christ - and faith in God. Believing and doing what Christ commands, thereby exercising faith in God, brings the visitation of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost tells men all they should know and all things they should do.

    The G&S must give men sufficient instruction to receive the Holy Ghost. Therefore the G&S must teach repentance and faith in God: believe Christ's words in the Sermon as a little child would understand his words, repent from all your sins by obeying his words as they are written, and be baptized by one of his sent servants, and you shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost and receive the Father's testimony of Christ. If this is done you would then be told by God all that you need to know and all that you need to do by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    We should not teach more nor less than repentance and faith in God, for then we would not be the people of God. We would be murderers, leading men to destruction.


    3 Nephi 15:1
    And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ended these sayings
    he cast his eyes round about on the multitude
    and said unto them
    behold ye have heard the things which I taught before I ascended to my Father
    whoso remembereth these sayings of mine
    and doeth them

    him will I raise up at the last day

    "These sayings," the Sermon on the Mount, are a sufficient written G&S to lead all men to life eternal if it is believed and actually done.

    1 Nephi 13:40-41
    [A]ll men must come unto him [Christ], or they cannot be saved.
    And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

    And the Sermon on the Mount is a necessary written guide and standard to lead all mankind to life eternal, if it is believed and actually done.

    John 14:21-24
    He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
    Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
    He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

    Doing what Christ commands in the Sermon as it is written is the means by which we come into his presence and obtain the fulness.

    The Lord said in the A&C there are only two ways. This is the way to life and salvation.

    Jared Livesey

  50. If we as individuals are not united as one in desiring to walk the path that leads to life and salvation, which path is the diligent execution of the commandments of Jesus Christ as contained in the Sermon on the Mount, then we as a people cannot be of one heart.

    Jared Livesey

  51. Lisa,

    Here's a question to ponder: do we judge those for whom we have charity, or do we instead judge those whom we do not love and feel ourselves superior to?

    As it stands, you'll have to judge my heart without my direct participation. Be as merciful in your assessment as you hope God will be towards you. The wisest and most loving counsel I can give is this: "Judge not others except by the rule you want used to weigh yourself."

    Jared Livesey

  52. The question, which was not answered, by the way, was to determine whether or not your devotion to the Rock of Christ is working in you to produce the necessary results in your own heart. Because if it’s not working for you, the poster child for The Rock of Christ, then can it work as a G&S for the rest of us? Is the Rock of Christ an idol for you? If it doesn’t actively align your heart squarely with our Saviors, which will manifest itself in love, then it is an idol and the mark is missed. Is it not?
    I do love you. I love that we someday may be able to live beside each other. I love that we may be able to see each other every day, work together, help each other, and build a city that will be so awesome that God himself will want be among us.
    If the Rock of Christ has helped you to have the heart of Christ then you have been successful, and your devotion to the words in the Rock of Christ has borne fruit. The heart of Christ loves everyone, even those that offend, abuse, and persecute. The heart of Christ cares for those that are homeless, dirty, smelly, and toothless. The heart of Christ is not prejudiced, haughty, selfish or conceited.
    Being in a Fellowship, eventually gathered together will require us to have the heart of Christ to be able to succeed. No G&S can guarantee our individual success in acquiring the heart of Christ. So we are wasting our time seeking the perfect document.

    Acquiring the heart of Christ requires actively sacrificing. It requires losing even that which you love the most voluntarily, because it is what God wants. It requires obedience to the will of Christ, even if it is diametrically opposed to everything you know or hold dear. The only way you can become truly compassionate is to go through the same pain others have gone through, resulting in feelings of rejection, hatred and loss towards you, ripping your heart to shreds. Then you can understand how to be a minister to others. It requires putting the needs and desires of others above your own. Becoming like Christ requires more than strict devotion to mere words on a page, or strict observance to a law. It will not save you. It becomes like the old law. Not that the Rock of Christ is not awesome, the words of Christ and true, it is. Not that we should not try to adhere to it’s precepts. But it is not only reading about how Christ was or how He wants us to be, it is about being who Christ is, and what He is. I believe that if someone were just like Christ is, he or she could say I love you, without hesitation, they would not be afraid of the words, and they would mean it.

    So this light thing the Lord has asked of us requires us to have, not just words on a page, but hearts nit together in love and cooperation with each other. If the G&S were a guide and standard to help us worship together in our Fellowships, preserving what we have already been given by the Lord and His Servants, we could then have the basics of how to worship, then we could learn to love and care for each other by experience and sacrifice, by doing, not strict adherence and devotion to a law, even if it is a good law. Am I wrong? Help me understand please. And it would help if you spoke plainly, not quoting scripture. I think it is easy to hide behind scripture.
    Love, Lisa

  53. "The question, which was not answered, by the way, was to determine whether or not your devotion to the Rock of Christ is working in you to produce the necessary results in your own heart."

    Yes, your intent was to judge my heart, as I said.

    As I said, directly: As it stands, you'll have to judge my heart without my direct participation. Be as merciful in your assessment as you hope God will be towards you. The wisest and most loving counsel I can give is this: "Judge not others except by the rule you want used to weigh yourself."

    Jared Livesey

    1. You make it a point to say that everyone should give to everyone who asks, so why do you refuse to give her the information she asked you for?

  54. And here is The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles, without the scriptural language.
    The Simplified Gospel

    The ways humanity tries to bring about justice, peace, and unity do not and cannot work. History and current events are proof that competing against, controlling, or manipulating others always results in disunity, conflict, injustice, and inequality. Yet competition, force, and manipulation are how humanity has chosen to govern itself. Jesus offers us the sole alternative to humanity’s self-destructive ways: love.

    The law of God is this: every last thing you wish others would do to you, do those exact same things to them. This law defines the behavior of perfect love, which is called “charity.” God’s law is the true moral and ethical standard of all humankind, being written into every conscience, and it is the definition of “good.” Behavior that falls short of this law is not good and produces both guilt and conflict with others.

    The purpose of the law of God is to end conflict between people. Those who willingly keep His law may joyfully and peacefully live together as equals, both here and now, and forever in the eternal world. The commandments that Jesus gave us in the Sermon on the Mount are how we are to obey the law of God through our works and end our conflicts with others.

    Love, the feeling which makes us want to do what the law of God commands, is given to us by God. Charity is Jesus’s nature, meaning He feels perfect love towards everyone. Charity is the nature of all those who inherit God’s kingdom with Jesus. Jesus’s commandments in the Sermon on the Mount are the actions which those who have charity do by nature.

    “Sin” is intent or action which falls short of the law of God, such as giving in to lust and doing to others what we do not wish others would do to us. “Repent” means to change one’s mind, to reconsider, or to relent, all of which implies a willing change in one’s behavior.

    Any who will believe Jesus’s words in the Sermon on the Mount as literally as small children believe their parents’ words, and repent of all their sins, and be baptized by one of His sent servants, shall be visited by God with fire and with the Holy Ghost and shall receive a remission of their sins.

    The visitation of the Holy Ghost changes our feelings so that we understand Jesus’s love and want to only do good. Then we are to do what Jesus commands until the end of our lives. We trust in Jesus to guide and comfort us in our trials and afflictions as we learn who and what He is by the things we suffer in obedience to His teachings. Just as one does not learn a new skill without practice, nobody can understand nor master the discipline of perfect love without doing its works. Doing the works Jesus commanded until we fully understand Him and freely agree to become what He is and to receive His nature from Him permanently as a gift by His grace so that we love everyone perfectly just like He does is what it means to be a disciple of Jesus.

    If you keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, you are His church (Matthew 7:24-25, 16:18; Luke 6:47-48), you are His disciple (John 8:31-32), you are His friend (John 15:14), and you are His family (Luke 8:19-21).

    1. Thank you for that Log. I am taking my time to digest your translation. My 93 year old mom was sick the last few days, and I haven’t been able to respond. But I would like to, given your honest effort here. So give me another day or so. Thanks, Love, Lisa

    2. I have some slight differences in opinion to the above explanation, but not to a great degree. Most of what you have written, I agree with completely. The point I was trying to make is not that the Sermon on the Mount could not produce a Zion individual, if one would abide by it, but has it produced a Zion person in you. The reason I asked, is that I want to know if a person who is presenting a view I am considering, is motivated by the love emanating from Jesus Christ, or motivated by something else. Your way of presenting yourself does not adequately portray your heart, and what is motivating your view? The way you present yourself seems more like someone who is trying to compel, someone who is not respectful of others ideas or input, someone who cannot work well with others, someone who may have some difficulty dwelling with a people who are of one heart and and one mind. I’m just trying to explain how you come across. I am sure I come across in some pretty flakey ways myself. I am just trying to do the best I can in spite of my weaknesses. Your presentation hurts your cause. No personal offense intended.

      I think you and I are more in agreement than we may think. I love the Doctrine of Christ and the Sermon on the Mount and at Bountiful. I think where we differ is that I believe a G&S needs to include an instruction of the basic ordinances and some basic standards that we are already doing in the Fellowships, so that we have a starting place for new folks. In our Fellowships are where we will be able to put our hearts on the line. Then hopefully we will mature into God-like ministers who can receive all we need to become disciples of Christ in power, truth and righteousness. I think we need a little more than what you are suggesting to help as guides and standards (See definitions below) for Fellowships as they are formed. I believe that was the reasoning behind the request to develop a G&S. However, I do believe I know you better now. And getting to know the infamous “Log” was well worth the exchange. I have read your blog entries around the blogosphere for years. Sometimes you amaze me, sometime you confuse me, but you always interest me. I do love you and hope you have success in all of your efforts. Thanks for responding. Love, Lisa
      Definitions of Guide - a good example to follow
      Definition of Standard - something considered by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.

    3. Lisa,

      If my words are judged by any other standard than truth, that standard is not truth.

      Since I have explained why, in detail, I dispute the adoption any G&S other than The Rock of Jesus Christ, there is no need for me to repeat it.

      Jared Livesey

  55. Part 1
    Part of graduating with a PHD you are required to complete a dissertation. My dissertation focused on figuring out why some Natives left the rez to get educated and returned home, while others didn’t. I wanted to find out what enticed them to come home because I wanted to help my Nation develop a strategy that would entice all educated members to return home, so that we no longer experienced a “brain drain”. The results changed my life and understanding. I discovered that many Natives returned home because of relationships, which didn’t surprise me. What surprised me were their answers to the following question: What would you recommend to entice others to come home? Every single individual recommended an institutional solution: more housing, increase pay, better health care, better schools, etc. Not one of them mentioned solutions that incorporated relationship building. They were unaware of how institutionalized they were.

    A couple of years ago Denver wrote a blog post indicating that he couldn’t see how a people who are so institutionalized could break free from an “ingrained social arrangement” and establish Zion. I agree with this statement. But, I don’t believe only Natives experience this. What I learned, in the past year, is anyone who has bought into an institution will struggle to break free from their institutionalized mentality. The level of ease, of breaking free from an institutionalized mentality, will depend on how much they were ingrained in the institution and how willing they are in becoming like a little child.

    The early saints were unable to accomplish Zion because they were drawn to an institutional mentality that focused on a New Testament church. This early influence, led the LDS church in a direction that caused them to organize one of the biggest institutions in America. It dawned on me though that we have an advantage over the early saints. We have been blessed to have their history, the truth. We can learn from their mistakes. We can learn from Joseph Smith, because he provided a great foundation that we can build upon. There was so much more the earlier saints could have obtained had they been willing.

    I have learned that it doesn’t matter what institution you come from, you can be ingrained with many false traditions that hinder your progress. I realized that everything I was taught by the leaders in the LDS church led me down the wrong path. What I learned from them about faith, charity, love, peace, equality was flipped upside down as I studied and went to the Lord to be taught. I realized that if I have knowledge that is occupying a particular spot in my brain about what something means I need to rethink it, especially if I learned it from an institution. I came to understand that the Lord couldn’t teach me when I already thought I knew. I had to become like a little child seeking and searching.

  56. This comment has been removed by the author.

  57. Part 2
    Two weeks ago, a speaker in the Native ward said: I am going to talk about the BOM, but I don’t want to be another white guy telling you how to interpret your ancestral record. This rang very true to me. Our new scripture format, allows me to read things in context, in the big picture, restoring freedom to interpret based on the context given by the author, rather than the versification that generates fragmented ideas. When scriptures are taken out of context, it is easy to miss the whole story. I come from a story telling culture. The new format reminds me of that cultural aspect. Given the new context grouping of the scriptures, I am free to make up my own mind, rather than allow someone else to tell me how I should interpret, to justify the institution that they represent. I will hearken to other’s ideas, but hearken doesn’t mean to follow blindly. Hearken literally means to “hear and know.” To be instructed, I was required to change my mind (literally what repent means), being as a little child. And when I did, I was given far greater light and understanding.

    Zion will be made up of individuals who can break free from an institutionalized mentality, and become like a little child, freeing their mind from institutionalized definitions and understandings to rely on the Holy Ghost to teach them. Two books that really helped me see the patterns that occurred with the early saints are The Three Essays and A Man Without Doubt. These books helped me see how the LDS church trapped and kept my mind in bondage. I was able to see what I needed to repent of, turning more towards Christ.

    The history of the early saints can teach us a lot about what to do and what not to do. It can teach us about how the LDS religion became an institution. From their experience, we can learn what to avoid so that we don’t head in the same direction as they did, resulting in an institution.

    Take a look at the patterns of the early saints, and ask yourself if what we are doing now is what they did then. Here are a few questions that can help, recognize patterns of the past so that we can avoid repeating them in the present. How did Brigham Young get into power? What tools did he use to get what he wanted? How did he run his telestial kingdom? What did his heart desire- to do the will of God or Joseph? Did the voice of the Lord guide him? How did Joseph Smith’s closest friends end up treating him? What methods did they use to cause anger and contention? What happened when the saints were too eager? Were the saints qualified to go to the Indians? If not, why? Denver’s blog titled “Poor” written on March 23, 2014 answers a few of these questions.

    Although we have all undergone major life changes to belong to this movement, and that is respected by God and the heavens, anytime you do something new, when the going gets tough and the pressure is up, our first reaction is to resort to the remnants of our LDS institutionalized training so deeply grooved in us. I believe that we need to be freed from our institutional minds, and focus our attention on further developing the relationships that has been swelling, sprouting and beginning to grow. It will become a tree with fruit that is sweet above all that is sweet, pure above all that is pure, and if any eat, they will never hunger or thirst.


    1. I think most of us have post traumatic LDS syndrome. But I don’t think we should throw the baby out with the bath water. :). Would we say the Sacrament was important to continue, or are we to consider that we should not adopt it in our fellowships because we did it in the LDS church? Would some want to forego Sacrament in their fellowships? Would freeing us from that old tradition bring us to a closer relationship with our Lord? Some would probably say yes, considering the variety of different views we now see unfolding. In my view, we need someone sent by God to help us move together in the right direction. As long as the Spirit indicates to me that the ones or ones are true Servants I am good to listen, pray, receive revelation and move forward together, if and as the Spirit dictates. We have to do the work that is required of us individually to be able to discern good from evil, right from wrong, truth from error, so we can guard ourselves from the old habit of placing a man in between ourselves and God.
      Just my thoughts on the subject matter. Thanks, Love, Lisa

    2. No we wouldn't throw out Sacrament or Baptism, those are ordinances given to us by God to provide us with light and understanding. But I do believe I need to rethink what they taught me about why we get baptized and why we partake of the sacrament. Would I throw out the BOM because it came through them, no. But, I would approach the BOM like a little child, making room in my understanding, to obtain an understanding of the authors intent. The BOM gives us understanding of who true servants will be in our day, and what message to look for. We can measure the truth of any message by the standard the BOM sets. I agree with you, there is a labor that needs to be done by each one of us, and that labor is to study God's words: seeking earnestly to know and understand the message contained in the Book of Mormon. I believe, by the gift and power of God, scriptures can be expounded. I am persuaded of the BOM's power.

    3. Well said Q. I think we have found agreement.
      Thanks for your response!
      Love, Lisa

  58. This is a good one...thank you for the reminder good sister. :)

    1. I am definitely in agreement with you Donald. That is a good one, written by someone that expounds scripture better than anyone I know. His words help reinforce the confirmation to me that he is indeed sent. :).
      Thanks, Lisa


  60. Perhaps we are looking in the wrong place to find this elusive guide and standard.

    "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law. And as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law, for the hearers of the law are not just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (for when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts; their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another) in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to the gospel."

    In other words, what group is already living "the law?" What group is showing the work of the law written in their hearts?

    "Behold, you are called ["the Remnant"], and rest in the law, and make your boast of God, and know his will, and approve the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; and are confident that you yourself are a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which has the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?"

    "Therefore, if the uncircumcision (lack of covenant) keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision (lack of covenant) be counted for circumcision (a covenant)? And shall not [the un-covenanted] which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, JUDGE YOU, who by the letter and [covenant] does transgress the law?"

    1. Not sure I follow. So what exactly are you saying? Don’t read any jarrings in the question. I sincerely do not know what you are referring too. I must be dense.
      Can you elaborate? Thanks, Lisa

    2. Take a look at Romans 2 (or I guess Romans 1:9 in the Re). Use different translations of the Bible if you want to. Replace "Jew" with "Remnant Movement," "circumcision" with "covenant," "uncircumcised" with "uncovenanted," and "Gentiles" with, well, whatever group fits. See if it has any application to the current situation.

    3. Ah, thanks, I think I see what you are saying. Wonder what the Scripture Committee will do about that. I think I have represented my views as well as I could. So I leave it with you. And it looks like the most recent votes are in, for whatever that will mean. I hope the Lord will find me (as well as others) worthy to go forward with His work. May God bless you all!
      Love, Lisa

    4. Lisa,
      I don't know that it would change anything the Scripture Committee would do. But if that passage (Romans 2) is applicable in this situation, then claiming a covenant (but not doing the works of "the law") is the same as having no covenant at all. Likewise, if someone naturally lives the things in the law (even dissenters or the disaffected), then they are as if they had covenanted. God is no respecter of persons.

      In other words, while everyone here continues to sort out the semantics of the G&S, the Lord may move (or have moved) to a group of Gentiles who are naturally living the law, even though they have not made a covenant. That doesn't mean that He has abandoned this group, but like in Bountiful, he needs some "children," (or those who have child-like attributes) to show us "weak" people, pious as we might be, how it is done.

    5. Yes, that is a very good assessment. I don't know how you can be of one mind and heart or be in agreement without being perfected in Him. It doesn't seem doable. I hope I am wrong. Thanks Inspire!

  61. Reasoning together doesn't happen unless we agree to a common foundation which is taken for granted between us. Luckily we have such a common foundation already, per the A&C, which we explicitly agreed to.

    We agreed "to use the scriptures to correct []ourselves and to guide []our words, thoughts and deeds" and "to assist all others who covenant to likewise accept this standard to govern their lives[.]"

    So, when the Lord says in the scriptures, in these exact words (note in each case it is the Lord speaking)...

    Jeremiah 17:5 ¶ Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

    2 Nephi 28:31 [Thus saith the Lord:] Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    JST Mark 9:44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall by himself and not for another, or not trusting another.

    ... then those are words we have agreed to correct ourselves with, to guide our words, our thoughts, and our deeds, and to help every other covenant participant to accept these words as the standard to govern their lives.

    Therefore, we will not teach men to trust any other man, which is why we are not going to agree to a guide and standard which leads men to trust Denver Snuffer. We know that those who trust in men are cursed by the Lord, which means they are denied association with him and shall go to hell unless they repent of trusting in men. When we find covenant participants advocating that others should trust Denver Snuffer, then we have agreed to try to help those covenant participants cease from advocating trust in Denver Snuffer and instead correct themselves and allow their words, thoughts, and deeds to be guided by the scriptures.

    We, meaning you and I, cannot reason together without this common foundation of the scriptures as they stand. If we alter the Lord's words to make the appearance of an exception to his cursing for trusting Denver Snuffer, then we are doing the opposite of what we said we would do when we assented to the covenant: instead of letting the scriptures correct us and guide our words, thoughts, and deeds, we are correcting the scriptures, using our words, thoughts, and deeds as our guide.