This space exists for the proposal and discussion of efforts to address the Lord's requirement for a statement of principles to be added to the scriptures.
So is the next step to take this to the Lord and ask how to proceed? Will the 93% be sufficient or is there more to be done?
Did something happen with the third question that perhaps is skewing the results? Out of 414 responses to the first 2 questions, I find it difficult to believe only 30 people responded to the last, and that 25 of them are against the G&S.
Cherryann,So how that worked is that the third question was ONLY answered by those who initially said "no" to question #2 (if one accepts and supports this GS for adoption).If a person said "yes", to question #2, the survey was done. Thus, 381 people never went on to answer #3 because it wasn't pertinent given their "yes" answer. If a person said "no," then they were taken to a second page in which they were asked, even though this is NOT your preferred document, would you still agree to have it adopted. Five of the 33 people who went on to answer that (because they said no to question #2) went ahead and said "yes," they agree to it. 25 people still said "no," and it looks like 2 didn't answer yes or no. Does that make sense? Hope that clarifies how to read the results. It can definitely be confusing.
Karen, Yes, that makes sense now! Thank you for clarifying the "were there 2 or 3 questions?" mystery. So does this mean that anyone who answered "no" to the first question (did you accept the covenant?) were automatically prevented from responding to the subsequent questions, too?
Yes, it did. To my understanding, it took them to a landing page where they were thanked for their desire to participate and invited them to take the covenant and let them know they were welcome to return again during the five days of voting and vote continue the voting process if they did so. Also, in my response above I messed up on my last sentence where I said it looked like 2 didn't answer yes or no. I misread the results on answer 3 when I said that.
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The vote results show that we do not have mutual agreement on the Lottery G&S, therefore per the A&C requirement for mutual agreement, the Lottery G&S is not to be adopted as the G&S.Jared Livesey
I think it would be useful to take a new survey of those who said no to understand their concerns. Perhaps this has already been done. I am not aware of what they are. If there are valid issues that need to be considered and taken into account, it would be good to do so. I think it would be good if we could all understand what the concerns are before moving on.
Bret, some have already asked questions and expressed concerns in comments on the blog. I would not be interested in any surveys at this point. You are welcome to read what has already been stated. I'm curious about the fewer number of total votes this time, though.
Bret, please see here for a detailed explanation of concerns which, as yet, have all gone unaddressed: http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/2017/11/update-to-rock-of-jesus-christ.htmlThere is no way to rescue the Lottery G&S.Jared Livesey
Jared,I have remained mostly silent on the many G&S posts in the past month but have read almost all of the comments made by you and others in dissention from the lots process and resulting documents as well as basically every other proposal or document. I have been most impressed in particular with your very kind demeanor and willingness to not engage in contentious debate but rather just invite/persuade others to visit your forum to discuss the matter. And I also have to respect your tenacity to beat a dead horse to a bloody pulp.But I have to ask you and the other 25+ who may have voted in opposition to the final lots document what you intend to do in the event that your labor fails to persuade the vast majority of the main body of believers. Do you intend to continue issuing the “I dissent from this proposal” edict all the way through into the appendix of the RE Scriptures themselves where the GS will be placed, like a post-script notation at the end? Where does the dissention end and the acceptance begin? In thinking this over, I’m reminded of the story of Mormon who knew that his people were all wicked and were going to die, but chose to fight by their side until the end. Assuming that you and the other 25+ people are correct in your understanding and your dissention justified, can you really not lay it before the Lord at this point and continue the battle by the side of all those who are deceived, knowing that all your words will be justified in the end? Or will you rather find a cave and wait out your days in solitary agony whilst lamenting….”O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord!”I ask these questions not in flippant sarcasm, but in an honest desire to know what you intend to do if a version of the G&S that you dissent from ends up being placed in the RE? Because it looks like that is a high probability and I for one would like to see those who continue to dissent lay it down at the feet of the Lord and find solace in the fact that you have done all that you could to persuade and will now lock arms with your people and move forward as one. Jim O'Rullian
Jim,You're free to do as you wish. If you want to know what I plan on doing, I plan on giving the Lord what he has required and requested in the A&C, and staying the course, however long it may take.And if we never do adopt a G&S by mutual agreement, but adopt it by any other means, then, as the Lord said: "you will be unable to accomplish other works that I will require at your hands."If I were in the majority and thought there was a high probability of a G&S which is known to have dissenters being nonetheless added to the scriptures, it would be distressing to me. I would not be speaking to the dissenters in order to get them to bend, but to those who have power to add things to the scriptures, and pleading with them to honor the Lord's requirement in the A&C. The Lord does not lie, neither does he vary from that which he has said, neither does he work in secret combinations."Do you indeed desire to be my people? Then accept and do as I have required.""I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say, but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."Jared Livesey
So...Jared, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that if the main body moves forward with a G&S that you are not in agreement with, you will submit your own document separate and apart from the other? How does that fulfill the requirements of the A&C that we provide ONE statement of principles and not MANY?Is there more to be gained in rigidly staying the course and being right than in allowing your brother and sister to learn from their own agency and experience that they were the ones in error? Would you rob them of that experience? Maybe we all need to pass through this experience to expose our collective ignorance and thus be condemned a people and you alone will stand as one who spoke truth....Or maybe....just maybe....you too must pass through this to expose your ignorance as well.Either way, why not comply with at least one requirement in the A&C to provide just ONE statement of principles and not MANY and allow the Lord to know where you stand. I mean...you've certainly let the public know where you stand on it, so that base is covered.Jim
Jim,If any G&S is added to the scriptures without mutual consent, then the requirement of the Lord has been dishonored. At that point, the only way for the people to repent of this dishonoring of the Lord would be to remove the illegitimately added G&S and add one that is mutually agreed upon.Nobody's being compelled here, Jim; you have your agency: to obey the Lord, or agree with and obey another power. If you desire to be the Lord's people, then you will accept and do as he has required.I am in no rush, and can afford to wait as long as it takes until the requirement of the Lord is fulfilled.Jared Livesey
Jim,I suppose I should add: if The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles were mutually agreed to and adopted and added to the scriptures, you all may still exercise your agency and teach whatsoever you wish - within your own fellowships. You just would be unable to put me in a position to necessarily affirm your teachings within my fellowship, as I would have to if I were to agree to one of your G&Ss. After all, if I agreed to it, I would be stuck with it.Jared Livesey
Against my better judgement, I'll make one more comment:As I understand the Lord's recent clarification, if we mutually agree that a vote was just taken and 93% of folks voted to sustain it, and also mutually agree that there are 7% that chose not to sustain it....and then we don't dispute the matter or the outcome any further (even if some would like to), we have mutual agreement as a body of people and can move forward in compliance with the Lord. I participated in and voted in favor of the Aug. 5th document not because it was perfect but because I'm a reasonable person like most in this movement who places a higher priority on being agreeable rather than being right, after I have had the opportunity to persuade; I have participated in and voted in favor of the most recent document compiled by representatives of the main body chosen by lot for the same reasons, although I find this one much better overall. It is plain to all that the voice of the people in this matter is to finally put it to rest and move on. As previously stated by the scripture committee, they have respectfully stepped back from the G&S allowing the process to be completed by the main body of believers providing no oversight or governance over the process. “It is not the place of the scriptures committee to govern. This general assembly is a body of equals. There are efforts underway to develop an alternate statement of principles. Our committee does not claim any authority to permit or deny any such effort. Just as anyone can call a conference, so any group can undertake an endeavor that impacts many fellowships. That endeavor owns the responsibility to persuade the general assembly to accept that effort. This committee is willing to offer any reasonable help.”- Aug. 13th, 2017. “The scripture committee has a responsibility to remain neutral in the Guide and Standard struggle. To maintain a distance from the work and discussions surrounding this effort…” - Oct. 1st, 201793% of the general assembly has been persuaded and has accepting of this most recent effort. There is nothing left to be done other than for the scripture committee to make formatting changes in keeping with the RE scriptures and include it for print. Anything further would constitute a blatant lack of respect for the overwhelming majority in this movement for the second time, turning the clock back to Aug. 5th, and demonstrating that we have learned very little from the struggle. The 93% now have the responsibility to reach out to the remaining 7% to entreat, invite and persuade with respect and kindness while choosing not to dispute.Jim O’Rullian
Well said, Jim. This is the one document that the whole body was invited to participate in creating together since the scripture project began. The body was invited to vote on the process, and overwhelmingly voted in favor of it. The body was invited to submit their names into the lot. The body was invited to submit their own proposals for content to help shape the final draft. The 7 lotsters drew from all proposals and created, in essence, a document that is a beautiful summary of what all the other documents contained. And it was done in the Lord's own words, upon which we have all already mutually agreed by virtue of having accepted the covenant. And the body overwhelmingly voted to accept this version--even a higher percentage voted to accept it than those who voted in favor of the process!I have read all the proposals and have read all the comments for and against each one. I am persuaded by this document. I can't dispute the Lord's words. I am persuaded by His acceptance of it. I am grateful for His guidance in defining mutual agreement. I believe that if we can all put down our defenses and give our burdens, troubles, broken hearts, disagreements, and disappointments to the Lord and decide to stop disagreeing with each other, THIS is what the Lord is asking of us. THIS is the test at hand. In the end, I don't believe the Lord cares so much about WHICH document is included in the appendix (this is a light thing), as he does about the hearts of His people being prepared for more. I believe the temple should be our focus. We need to move past this, though, to gain the greater light the Lord has to offer us. I believe this is what the Lord is patiently waiting for.
Mutual agreement is not "the voice of the people," which is otherwise known as "majority rules." Mutual agreement means we all - each and every single one of us - agree as one, with none dissenting, or else we do not agree.Mutual agreement is not esoteric religious jargon, requiring learned exegesis, but a common English phrase whose meaning is not in dispute.Some dissent means we do not have not mutual agreement.If you desire to be the Lord's people, you will accept and do what he requires. He requires a G&S to be adopted by mutual agreement.Otherwise, we will continue on in the venerable Gentile tradition of acknowledging the Lord's commandments and requirements with our lips while dishonoring and denying them with our deeds - that is, we will say and do not, just as the Church before us.The choice of honoring the Lord's requirement, or dishonoring him, is up to you all.Jared Livesey
We have a chance to start right - to honor the Lord not only with our lips, but in our very deeds, by doing exactly what he requires, no more and no less.Why waste this opportunity to please the Lord, and start the covenant participants in the right direction by obeying his words with exactness and honor, rather than dishonoring him by willfully acting contrary to his clearly stated requirement?What is the harm in doing what he asks of us exactly as he has asked it of us?Jared Livesey
Jim,Also, in this case, it is more important to me to be right with God and harmless to all than to be agreeable to the multitude. When we lead men astray by our teachings and precepts and bad examples before them, their blood comes upon our garments. Leading men to destruction is termed murder by Alma in Alma 36.=====12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.=====When we mutually agree to a G&S, we also take upon ourselves, as individuals, the consequences of its effects upon others. We agreed to it, after all, and put it forth, when it would otherwise not have gone out save it be for our agreement.Jared Livesey
If 93% believed they were starting wrong, obviously they would course correct. Rather, they feel they are doing exactly what the Lord has asked and requires. What you are saying then, is that they are all is mistaken in this understanding. That of course is your understanding and opinion which none will fault you for. You have used respectful persuasion. Likewise, others have respectfully used persuasion which appears to have been more effective, right or wrong. Out of curiosity, do you represent more than just yourself in these opinions or is there a fellowship you speak for?
Jim,I have given reasons for my "opinion" which none, as yet, have addressed. When one knows one is doing exactly what the Lord has asked and requires, there is no fear, but confidence. After all, when the Lord gives one an assignment, he also gives one understanding and power to accomplish his task.I speak for no other mortal than myself.Jared Livesey
Jim,What do you believe the Lord means by mutual agreement? Why do you believe as you do?Steve Graham