Tuesday, November 7, 2017

Last Call to Vote

Sisters and brothers of the covenant,

The Lord has been trying for the last many weeks to persuade us, His people, to rally around His words, His teachings, His covenant with us. A growing number of you, (hundreds now), have recognized His words and His instruction to us in the covenant. He said:

“I  have  given  to  you  my doctrine,  and  have  also  revealed  teachings,  commandments,  precepts,  and  principles  to  guide you  and  it  is  not  meet  that  I  command  you  in  all  things—reason  together  and  apply  what  I have  given  you  and it  will be  enough.” (Answer & Covenant Page 6 paragraph 3)

Hundreds have been persuaded by God’s own voice of the truths He has both given, and shown us clearly now. He has given us “principles to guide you.” He has said, if we will reason together and “apply what I have given you ... it will be enough.” We All accepted these things and agreed when we stood together to be counted by “God and the angels,” and said, “YES.”

We have already agreed to principles to guide us that He has given us. We agreed to that when we said yes to the covenant questions. Now, He has said, we are not excused from providing a “statement of principles” to be added to the guiding principles we have agreed to, which are the scriptures. (Answer and Covenant Page 8) This “statement” is to be structured bearing in mind primarily the needs of those who will later come to Christ knowing little of His doctrine and law who will need a “Statement” to guide them to Him, His doctrine, and His Law. What will be written must meet the simple needs of a fellowship of 70 in Uganda Africa, as well as a few gathered in Vietnam Nam, as well as every other family, and fellowship, around the whole earth.

Much has already been written by many. Many feel called to write. We invite All through our proposal


to vote affirmatively here http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/2017/11/time-for-vote.html to move forward our approach to the Lord and submit your writings to the Central recorder to be included in all that will be considered to comprise a “statement” to be delivered to the Lord. 

If you feel inspired to write, or, if you feel moved to nominate one or two to write, you will have the opportunity to submit your name, or the name(s) of others to be among the group from which a smaller group will be appointed to write the document. The appointed  group will be chosen by a method accepted by God in the past, (lots), to condense and assemble all that has been written and submitted by the people into a document using the criteria given in the covenant and according to the pure and simple doctrine of Christ and the Law of Christ. Upon completion of a document, those chosen to write will present their summary Statement to the people for review and comments. Then, after revision by the writers, at their prayerful discretion, a final document will be presented to the people and to the Lord for His approval or for His further direction to us.

Please come forward and join your vote with those who see the path forward with faith in the Redeemer to accomplish this light thing in unity and in accordance with the Lord’s direction to us. We invite you to unite and move forward with us to complete this task, which, if our hearts were right, would have been finished long ago according to the Lord. Our attempt at unity, peace and harmony among us will be as important as the document we finally bring to the Lord. 

The opportunity to vote to move forward and appoint editors/writers by lots and present a statement of principles to our God, is drawing to a close. We have until midnight on Wednesday Nov. 8, to vote. Please come forward and vote affirmatively if you feel persuaded by what has been put forth.

Please go here and vote before Wednesday Nov. 8, 12:00 am:


  1. Are individuals able to vote more than once, from more than one device? How is that abuse being guarded against? What happens if the voting is not unanimous? Has anyone addressed the concerns of Jared Livesey, who has shared his disagreement, via a new offering, with all of this? I feel like things and people are being pushed around/forward without any discussion rooted in love and compassion and sincere fellowship. Do we all even like each other? Or is that of no consequence?

    This feels forced and filled with anxiousness to just "get the job done." It feels like some are trying to "persuade" by manipulation of words-"hundreds now." I am concerned for the not hundreds.

  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

  3. Please remove my name from the United Proposal. Had I known you were going to use this proposal to further support this casting lots proposal I wouldn't have signed my name to it. Thank-you, Quintina Adolpho

  4. Where unanimity is the objective, it's not those who vote in agreement that let us know we have achieved it, but those opposed. If there are none opposed, then we have achieved mutual agreement.

    There are dissenting voices who we may view as strong headed and judge as hindering our progress who to me are still precious. If we are to be equal their voice needs to be heard and considered (in content of the statement of principals, as well as the process on how we proceed) with as much weight as we would give others.

  5. Lori,

    Jared has some WONDERFUL perspectives. I've read everything he has written on this topic. I am grateful that this process allows for his document to be thoroughly considered by the seven. I trust that if we unite in faith, fasting, prayer and genuine love toward all involved, that the seven will be inspired to write what GOD desires. It may be up to us to get in tune with what GOD desires, rather than our own desires. I'm saying that to myself, too...not pointing fingers. I truly believe many of us have personal preferences that may need to be subjugated to God's will, and if we look to our own hearts to evaluate if our humility is genuine, I believe God can work with all of us together on this.

    He can reveal His will to these seven, I know it. Perhaps the seven will be moved upon to even take Jared's document and say, "This is it." I am willing to put my trust in His ability to speak to those that He chooses through this process. I have now studied it out enough that I can see that lots have been used in some of the most significant of scriptural decisions, and will yet be used in Zion. There's a chapter in Nephi's Isaiah that talks about lots manifesting God's will, too, in addition to a 2010 blog post. The scriptures are replete with this. I marvel that He inspired the authors, Jim and James, to invite all those who have felt "called" of God to include their documents (including Jared and many others I personally know and love). This allows everyone to follow through with whatever personal revelations they had, while allowing God's ability to choose through lot to bring peace among us.

    I'm sorry if it feels forced to you. You may not be aware, but there really has been a lot of discussion. The establishment of this site, to allow people to share their feelings, ideas and suggestions was created after a group supporting the August 5th document were denied permission to express their ideas anywhere publicly, followed by something I wrote not being able to be shared either. I personally, have encouraged anyone I know who has had a suggestion, paper, or proposal to post here; even ideas completely opposite of mine. Many of us have spent hours on the phone or emailing, trying to talk with anyone we could, to find out what their perspectives were, and to find out what concerns they had. I personally emailed almost every single fellowship on the locator to inform them of all of this as soon as it was written up. It took hours and hours. (I think I missed 2 or 3)

    The authors of this proposal did everything they did out of consideration of as many perspectives as they could possibly accommodate. I personally have fellowshipped extensively with, and love and consider as family, some of those that are not on board with this. There is no way that we can all "know" every single person in this movement when they aren't all identifiable, nor in proximity. But I can tell you that love, and trying to put ourselves in every person's shoes has been a true effort and desire. But in the end, if everything has been attempted to persuade, love and work to get 100% agreement, but still 90% of the people say they want to go North, and 3% say South, 6% say East and 1% say West...what do you do?

    What do you do if you talk and talk and talk (in love and trying to accommodate and understand) and then the 1% that originally said they wanted to go West, now says the want to go South West? I'm being real here. This is what we've been dealing with for nearing 8 months.

    continued in next comment.....

  6. ....continued from above

    We may seem like we are just trying to get the job done, but it never should have been this difficult to begin with. Why is it that the 1%, the 3% and the 6% described above never ask themselves the questions you posed to those supporting this proposal? Why don't they ask themselves if they could stop where they are and consider accommodating and adjusting to what the 90% were saying? Do we not realize that among that 90% are VERY MANY people who have done just that. They've stopped, listened and tried to figure out how to unite and make something work. Enough people were willing to do that (listen to others), that eventually 90% got on the same page unitedly, out of LOVE for others.

    Why is it that the smaller group always points to the larger group and accuses them of abuse and manipulation? I am not attacking in saying that. I am asking a genuine question to consider.

    Do people not think that the 90% represent many individuals, with personal ideas and preferences that have conscientiously made the choice to lay down their pride, preferences and opinions in order to unite as a whole and do as God has asked? Why is evil attributed to them, or lack of love? At some point, there is agency, and the 90% cannot compel everyone to agree.

    This may seem forced, but that is precisely why there's a vote. The vote acquires permission from the body. The vote is the mechanism whereby, after having communicated for months and months on this "light thing," we begin to move forward on something with the consent of the people. Nothing said that there must be a unanimous decision on "moving forward" with something to produce a document. No one is forced to participate, but even those who oppose, are still welcome to submit their name for the lot. We really want the Lord to be able to choose from the entire movement. Perhaps Jared will be chosen if he submits his name. That would be wonderful, wouldn't it?

    Well, I hope this response was taken in the honest effort it was of mine to genuinely answer your concerns. I wish that I had known who you were during this process so I could have reached out to you. It was my honest attempt and desire to personally speak with everyone I could. I hope you will join in supporting the document if the final result is something your heart can possibly accept as being inspired of the Lord. I also hope you will consider submitting names of those you feel should be involved in the lot.

    Thanks for taking the time to read.

    Karen Strong

  7. Karen, speaking for myself, but likely also for many others, thankyou sincerely for your time and effort and the evident love in all that you have attempted in this. You are an example to me of walking the Zion heart talk. If we had been able to respond in kindness to each other throughout the process, as you have done here, we would be much further along than we are. Gratitude for the opportunity to move forward.

  8. Amen to your words, Karen. I look forward to a heavenly approach to moving forward.

  9. Thank you so much Karen for your thoughtful response. You are a writer after my own heart. :) I suppose I should share a little about myself...

    My husband and I are not part of a fellowship at the moment, neither are we active online. Christ had me get off social media a while back, so I have really felt out of all the loops, unless something happens to get posted on a blog or website, which is an issue we have been pleased to see addressed in some way through this blog site. We are still active in our local ward and love our friends and neighbors there, which is where Christ wants our focus to be for the foreseeable future. And we are grateful. It has been and continues to be quite the journey for us personally.

    As far as the Restoration Scriptures and the GS are concerned, we have sincerely tried to follow, be aware, and participate. We accepted Jeff Savage's work, not knowing him or anyone else, without being bothered that it had been included without discussions or acceptance. Then we went along with what others came up with the next two times despite the fact our personal voices were never heard or represented. Then we did due diligence in the votings over the summer, finding ourselves aligned with the "majority." Through every new step we have tried our best to follow the Spirit and felt a wonderful joy and peace, though there seemed to be an ever growing frustration from others.

    Then after the covenant conference, I discovered the three blog posts about a potential idea/solution for creating a GS, and anticipated there would be discussion and feedback. But what happened was action. I was taken aback, but, again, participated because I naively thought it was the best/only option. (I am referring to the ComeServe site.) I quickly witnessed the challenge of many becoming united and realized the effort was not going to flower and bloom as hoped.

    to be continued...

  10. Something has changed or happened since the conference. I don't know exactly what it is. My husband and I do not have "a dog in this fight," to use a cliche. We have always been willing to get our hearts right with Spirit, even when it meant we did not agree with someone or something. We did not find ourselves in a "minority" until now. I care not for my own ideas or opinions. There are people here much smarter, wiser, and more capable than I am. My concern is about how there is no foundation of understanding, kindness, compassion, meekness, humility, or even friendship under-girding this whole process. It feels like an "If you're not with us, you're against us" type of false dichotomy atmosphere. What will that mean for the future? If this is just a first task, how prepared are we truly for more challenges as a people?

    I am focused upon those who maybe are feeling completely left out or ignored at this point. Are they not important? Are they the problem, or a sign of a problem? Is this whole process not important enough to pause? Are we not important enough to one another to pause? Is this how we love, serve, and guide within our families?

    Christ did not give us a deadline. He only stated that once it is accomplished, put it in the scriptures, correct? Perhaps His timing has sufficient mercy and temperance that if we take a year or 20 years (:O) "it is enough." I could be wrong about that and this all needs to be done, done, done already.

    And for the general record, my husband and I liked the idea of forming a temporary committee for this task. We liked the idea of casting lots and recognize it has been used in scripture with success. We questioned using seven, however, feeling nine or twelve would be better, including larger multiples. But that was not an option to discuss, apparently. We also felt it would be good to have an equal number of men and women, husbands and wives preferable but even numbers being the goal. So, if there are nine men, there would be nine women. Or, if seven is used, there are seven men and seven women.

    See, we are not all that disagreeable as it may seem. I simply feel a need to be voice for those who might be feeling disenfranchised by this whole process. It does not feel okay or right to me given what this task is supposed to teach us. I apologize sincerely if it is felt I am a pain in everyone's arse. I do not mean to be, but also must express what my heart sees.

    I will continue to pray for those who press forward. I genuinely care about each person, whether I have a name and face with it or not. May God continue to watch over us all, and may we be willing to learn His meekness, which is an overwhelming gift to experience.

    1. Lori,

      Thank you so much for sharing more about who you are and your feelings. I really appreciate. I think you and I are more in line with how we have been/thought through this whole thing than you may realize.

      I, too, was happy and supportive of the original (our entire fellowship unitedly supported it). Like you, I didn't know Jeff Savage. I met him finally in Boise. I was supportive of the June document, too. I supported the August document, watched the entire event via live video and literally cheered when they unanimously voted for it.

      Like you, I wanted to be a team player, so much so, that even though I was extremely disappointed that the August document never got taken to the Lord after having unanimous agreement by all the representatives that attended the August meeting; I still signed up to participate in the Come Serve effort. It was a few days after I signed up that my conscience got to me on two aspects of that, which I subsequently wrote about. Part of it was because I was feeling badly for all those who were then feeling baffled at what had happened to all the work on the previous efforts, and were feeling brushed under the rug.

      Like you, one of the things I did not like was that we never got the actual agreement from the covenant body (a majority vote to proceed...not the adopt by mutual agreement portion...just the permission to proceed) with that effort. It seemed to move forward, even though at least half the body was still wondering why the previous documents never went to the Lord as expected. I voiced this concern after hearing that many others were feeling the same, but did not have a voice to express it. So I completely relate to everything you expressed about caring about people who feel "unheard" and "unappreciated." This current effort, actually stems from that very concern. That's why everyone is invited to participate, after first getting permission to proceed.

      Like you, I don't have a dog in the fight either, I've been supportive until Come Serve, but then removed from public view the only "dog in the fight" I had after the October 7th meeting, in an effort to show my good faith desires to work with any and everyone to make this work.

      This proposal was not my idea, but when I read it, I felt it to be inspired. It also united many people who had become at odds. For example, as stated, I had spoken against Come Serve. Those authors had every reason to feel anger toward me because of that. But look what has happened, this proposal united all of us. We found agreement. I was very hopeful that such bridging of differences could happen throughout the entire movement. We have found forgiveness for offenses, real or just perceived, and I believed such healing could take place among everyone if they would allow it.

      continued next comment.....

    2. ....continued from above

      As for the number chosen: I can see why you would feel 9, 12 or 24 may be better. There was discussion with many people. Interestingly, some people actually felt 7 was too many. Some felt 3 was more than sufficient, or 5 at the most, and that anything more than that was "too many cooks in the kitchen," so to speak. You may like to know that 9, 10 and 12 were also considered. To my knowledge it was never discussed having equal men and women, but I like that idea and can see why that has merit. Some told us they didn't like there to be any restrictions on male/female, age, or having taken the covenant, and felt we were limiting God with contrived parameters. Some like an even number, and others said they preferred odd because as the "selected" people work through the process there may be moments where they need to break a dead-lock and could do it through vote amongst themselves on how to move forward on something. (And that came from talking to some who had received counsel from Denver in another setting where certain internal decisions, that weren't spelled out with specific instructions, were counseled to be made by majority vote). You can begin to see how complex it gets. Everyone having different ideas, each having pros and cons.

      I could go with just about any number recommended. In the end; seven was chosen. I was liked that choice and felt no reason to push the matter with further debate since 7 is a beautiful number that specifically corresponds with CHRIST. It means "complete." It is the number of rungs on Jacob's ladder in our eternal progression to tread the same path He has. I felt it appropriate. To me it meant the Lord would be choosing a "complete" representation of HIS covenant body to do this work; all connected to Christ, the true vine. (BTW, this is why the talk by Denver on Christ was the 7th talk.) It's HIS number. And this is HIS work. I therefore, felt peace when that was the decided upon number. We're also asked to forgive 7 x 70. (completely and as often as required) I thought this also appropriate, as it is forgiveness of one another's weaknesses that we need most right now.

      I so appreciate talking with you, Lori. I hope that everything I have said comes across in love and kindness. I am very weak. Very flawed. I have much to improve in my personality and much to still repent of. I sincerely seek to try to understand and love each person in this movement with their various strengths and weaknesses, too. I pray that you will forgive those of us who have advanced this proposal if it has offended your spirit in any way. I also hope that those who have found it "not their favorite", perhaps might be willing to consider the document that comes from the effort and have the same sort of mercy for the weakness in writing that may be evident in it; as the BofM authors asked for mercy to be given them for their weakness in writing. I hope we will all try to approach what is presented to us with as much mercy and grace as the Lord would like us to give if, and unite upon this if it is at all possible. I believe the seven will need all the united faith and prayers that we can all muster. I believe that if we will allow ourselves to fall on our knees in true prayer on their behalf, that the Lord will work miracles in each of our individual hearts in the process, and perhaps in 10 days we can have such a change in our own hearts that we have a document that truly bridges the divide.

      Karen Strong

  11. Oh, you did not have to take the time to respond, Karen. I appreciate your willingness and sacrifice in time to do so.

    I do agree with all you said about the beauty and significance of the number seven, and am pleased to learn there was discussion about it. For whatever reason, I simply felt a different one would be better. But no matter.

    There is so much I could say, yet the time for talking has come to an end and I would not dare impose upon anyone's time further. I wish you all well on this endeavor and simply pray that those who feel marginalized can find a measure of peace. One may feel like he/she has kicked a puppy at this point, and I pray others will try hard to understand that some matters of the heart are not so easily ignored, neither should they be. There are individuals who feel equally inspired by their opposing ideas. God bless, and thank you for your kind words. You have a beautiful heart.

    1. Thank you, Lori. I appreciate you sharing and discussing kindly with me. I share your same prayer for those who have felt marginalized in any way over the last 8 months.

      I also pray that a small miracle may happen with whomever the Lord chooses. I have this hope that perhaps He may even bring together seven who have not seen eye to eye up to this point,(including some of those who feel marginalized)... allowing someone from all the various perspectives we've had in the movement to work through this, with His spirit guiding them, and healing the group misunderstandings and wounds through the differing viewpoints working together to write a document agreeable to all. Wouldn't that be an amazing miracle! I can only hope, even though it may seem like a pipe dream to some. I'm pretty simple in my faith, I guess. LOL Anyway, thanks for allowing me to interact with you just this little bit. I enjoyed getting to know just a small part of you. I hope to be able to meet you someday. Karen