Saturday, November 18, 2017



At the bottom of this entry you will find a link to read the “Preliminary Guide and Standard”, along with an email address to send constructive feedback. There will also be a link present on the side of the page for easy access to the file. We would ask all to please read the post below before reading the preliminary Guide and Standard.

A Plea to Covenant People and Believers Everywhere

Dear brothers and sisters,

The Lord said: He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. (Matthew 10:39)

As the group of individuals chosen by lot, we want to be clear that we desire peace, with no recognition for the fruits of the hard work contributed by many. After our assignment is complete, we hope to assign the credit to the body as a whole, and not to any individual.

We wish we had not been tasked with this responsibility. We wish you could be in our place. We wish we could support and accept your efforts to compile exactly what would please you; that would be our preference, but we trust in the Lord to work with weak things. Many of you may have greater insight, input, skills, understanding, or inspiration. We have felt sincere heartache trying to please many, and mend some of the hurt the process has caused.

The Lord said: Although a man may err in understanding concerning many things, yet he can view his brother with charity, and come unto me and through me he can with patience overcome the world. (A&C)

Some in our group have participated in the other efforts and labors in producing a Guide and Standard dating back to the start. As a group we had already been willing to accept the documents presented previously, and willing to take those to the Lord. We would accept a document drafted by you as acceptable to present, but literally the lot fell to us to be in this difficult position. We will view you with charity as the Lord requests, please see it in your heart to do the same for us.

If you have been hurt, or find yourself rejecting how all of this came about, you are not alone. We are all marred from head to toe with how the world has treated us. No matter the reason for the hurt, come back and labor with us! The time is short and the Lord comes quickly, please come with charity for your brother, forgiveness in your heart, and let us work together. Let us meekly present a statement to the Lord so that He can give us His part. Please don’t turn away in anger or frustration, but please, let us all labor together. If we lose ourselves for a brother or sister, we will find ourselves in Christ. Let us make our hearts right, making this, and future labors a light burden to bear as we lift with love, and refuse to accuse.
We have completed our initial assignment. We were charged, through the drawing of lots proposal (see here and here) as well as the United Proposal, to use the words of the Lord and His authorized servant in our day in the creation of this product. This was our path forward.
Our methodology was to review all of the documents already created (as well as the Answer and Covenant) to select the best scriptures and quotes that as accurately, clearly, and succinctly summarized a few of the principles spoken of in the Answer and Covenant. To those who wrote in their own words: we thank you for your beautiful language and hope the scriptures we chose most accurately reflect what you were saying.
To see an “inside” look explaining our approach and methodology, here is a very brief video clip from our first call together. This starts immediately after the opening prayer. As a quick background, we had been discussing together via Slack what path to take going forward, and Jeff Reber had written to us all what I have summarized above.
You can see that within minutes we were unanimously agreed on how to proceed. Our work was simply to use your work. You were the researchers, writers, compilers, editors. You spent months fasting, praying, meeting together, reasoning together. You wrote again, changed items, updated, and labored. All we have done is woven together everything you already did into a short document. Let all the credit go to you, and the glory to our God. Our names will not appear on the document, or even any hint of a reference to us, or “seven lots” or anything of the kind.
We then spent three days and three nights beginning to end until this initial task was complete. Due to the time zones in which we live (from the west coast of the USA all the way to the United Kingdom), we were working 24 hours a day to completion.
Our end goal was to create a product broad enough to teach simple principles and let the people govern themselves. We know there are many strong opinions out there and we want all to be free to worship God according to the dictates of their own conscience. We expect and desire the Lord to ultimately edit and change our work according to His will. This is a living, breathing document, as greater light continues to be given we expect the document will be added upon. For now, we simply wanted to present a document mutually agreeable to us according to His commandment and for His consideration.
What now commences is three days and three nights of your feedback. Every single sentence of our document is a quote. If you see errors or mistakes please tell us. We expect only small adjustments to the content as needed. Although there are seemingly endless scriptures and quotes that could be added, brevity is favored. The document itself can be read in less than twenty minutes.
If you want to talk to us, we can be reached at

As a side note, one of our original members, Doug Larson, began to suffer from a significant medical condition and voluntarily excused himself from participating further. This was a difficult decision for him, and he provided us his thoughts before leaving the group, to be replaced by Kirk Strong. We kept in touch with him throughout our time working, and publicly express our love for him and thank him for his contributions to us.  We have shared with him, before anyone else, our completed work. He responded: “I have read it and it looks good. You have faithfully gone through and shown that each of the principles listed are indeed spoken by the Lord and His servants.”

At the end of his correspondence, Doug says, “I stand with you seven. Let’s see what the people think and then what the Lord has to say about it.” We couldn’t have said it any better.

Your friends,

Jack Hinkle, St. George, Utah
Jason Carlson, Dallas, Texas
John Webster, Cedar City, Utah
Jeff Reber, Beaver Creek, Oregon
Jonathan Dippold, Bury St. Edmunds, England
Shalyce Woodard, Clinton, Utah
Kirk Strong, Orem, Utah


  1. I publicly dissent from this proposal. The reasons have been stated elsewhere.

    Jared Livesey

    1. Jared, I understand your dissent. I prefer just DoC and sermon as well. This is a little Denver heavy to me. Having said that I can support this to attempt to find peace.

  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

  4. This document is composed entirely of the Lord's words, rather than the words of men. I am in awe that such a document could be gathered from many sources and made to be coherent and helpful. I find no fault in this document, and rejoice in our Lord's words. I pray we will be His sheep, hear His rather obvious voice in this document, and accept it as our Guide and Standard.

  5. I also add my approval to this document. I think these 7 individuals have brought together a beautiful representation of us all with the words they used of the scriptures, the Lord and His servants. I am happy to accept this as a guide and standard I am willing to live by.

  6. This comment has been removed by the author.

    1. Given that, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God," (Matt 4:4) I don't believe it is plagiarism to quote His words and use them as our guide and standard. Is that not EXACTLY what we are supposed to do? Is that not the HIGHEST level of faithfulness to His word?

      Or are the words of men somehow better than His words?

    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

    3. Lori - I never comment on threads or forums cause I'm usually busy being mom and not on the computer long enough to give it the time and attention to respond as is needed. I can see your heart in your words and your honest desire to do God's will. I LOVE THAT, and I commend you for doing as you feel is right. I'd love to talk more, but I have no means of contacting you. If you could email I can reply and talk with you. If you're up for it.

      Love you girl!!!!!

    4. Hi Shalyce. Thank you for your love and kindness in reaching out to me. That was unexpected but welcomed. I prayed much for you after learning you were the only woman chosen by lot to participate. :)

      I thank you for inviting me to contact you through email, but feel to decline taking any further discussion private. I like keeping things out in the open. I believe it helps me stay accountable and honest. But I also don't really have a need at this time for further discussion or understanding. I am more than willing to join my faith with others to ask for His will and heart to be made known. I can surely do that.

      I am appreciative of the time, prayers, and efforts you and the other six gave and sacrificed to create this GS. I was neglectful of acknowledging that and feel sad as a result. I am sorry I did not take greater pains and measure my words more carefully to convey my gratitude. It has always been there, however.

      Thank you again, and God bless.

  7. With completion of the statement of principles for public comment, the unity and cohesion of the seven should provide a foundational example for all the people. We all know the Lord is pleased when we are able to unify and join our hearts and minds in unity around His words and teachings. Who among us who have already mutually agreed to the words of the covenant would not answer affirmatively regarding the document produced by the seven: “These are the words of Christ and He has condescended to give them to us.” Every word of the document is His word.

    There are likely infinite ways to assemble, arrange, put forth, and present a statement of principles that include Christ’s words. The document produced by the seven chosen by lots is a magnificent example of one of those. I fully support the document that has been put forth by the seven. The document may have taken many different forms through the process of review and compilation. I accept the form it has taken. I believe it will be acceptable to the Lord if we can unitedly present it to Him now and ask Him humbly and contritely for His part.

    I believe the powerful hand of our God has been evident many times as we have tried to unite our hearts and minds in an approach that required and in fact did include United faith in Him and His power. We have nothing whatever to be proud about, or to congratulate ourselves for. We have so very very far to go to become what our Lord needs us to be. However, we should have learned by this experience together that when we are able to unite with Christ our Redeemer at the center of our desires and efforts, signs follow that kind of faith in Him. He can only work for men according to their faith. He has worked. His hand has been evident. We should jointly acknowledge that. He is offended when we confess not His hand in all things.

    There will be opposition during this period of public notice. We hope the seven will generously and kindly consider every point of opposition. If they feel jointly persuaded by any point presented, it should be included.

    Unanimity would be wonderful. Unanimity is very unlikely. There is, and always will be, opposition in “all things”. Perhaps unanimity could be possible after the Lord reveals His part? Even then, it has been shown in the past that some will reject the Lord’s own words from time to time. All are equally allowed to feel, express, and believe whatever they wish. Every point of view should be respected and allowed without retribution or ill feelings.

    We continue to invite every person among us to unite with us to approach our God to know His part. Consider the words of Christ presented by the seven chosen by lots. We are commanded to live by every word of God and have covenated to do so. Our statement could have included every word. That is not what our God required of us. The statement put forth by the seven is a respectful, compilation of the words of Christ that can aid and direct every soul around the entire world to come unto Christ, receive Him, and begin to know His wishes for a covenant and Zion people.

    I ask that as we proceed forward to complete what we have been asked, that all praise, and honor, and glory, be given to our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ. If there have been mistakes made, if we have not represented the Lord as He wishes, those fallicies and mistakes are of men. We are foolish and prone to error. We alone are responsible for errors. If we are His people, we should easily and naturally unite in Him. We should come to Him together with contrite hearts - He has said He will show us His part. That is what we need now.

    1. Hello Steve. Your comment brought out some concerns I have had about how those who disagree with this lots version may be viewed. I hope we are not thought of as opposition, as though we are working for the adversary in some way, or that we reject Christ's words, which could not be further from what is true. I hope I am misreading what you have shared. Please forgive me if I have.

      But I wish to say that what is being witnessed are individuals who disagree, for various reasons. That's all. No one is denying Christ or His words. I hope we can each remember that as we strive to find a way to move forward.

      The struggle is to accept others who have revelations and impressions from Christ about their part(s), and learn how to work together so all can perform their parts. It is not unlike a beautiful symphony with its many instruments or a choir of many harmonious voices. We each have something wonderful to contribute, and therefore I believe we can reach unanimity, or as I think of it: mutual agreement. I have great hope for this! I have been buoyed up today with thoughts that we are learning much through this process. I am grateful for Christ's impressions and the hope He has put into my heart, and for my heart that sees things as it does. I believe we are each receiving something from Him that is a valuable contribution to the overall task. I remain open to learning and hearing. God bless.

  8. I am merely making sure that the law of witnesses has been fulfilled: I dissent from this proposal. I have explained why.

    Or, to put it another way, I have explained what I will and will not agree to as far as a G&S, and why.

    You are still all invited to come and humble yourselves and reason together publicly and openly at a neutral forum established for this purpose:

    I do not know how long we have until the Lord rejects us and seeks another people because we will not keep his commandments as they are written, humble ourselves, regard each other as equals, and reason together.

    But we have that long.

    1. Jared, I appreciate the time you have given to address questions about your position that you have given on your blog here:

  9. The Lord is merciful. The “mutual agreement” condition means the majority cannot foist their G&S upon the minority. It requires unanimity or we don’t move. And you lack power to excommunicate dissenters, therefore you must, of necessity, humble yourselves to be equal with the minority, and reason together by persuasion, pure knowledge, long-suffering, meekness and love unfeigned. Because if you don’t, you won’t get unanimity, because we won’t be of one heart.

    “I want the liberty of believing as I please, it feels so good not to be trammeled.”

    You’ll find that if you adopt The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles as the G&S, you are still free to preach and practice whatsoever you will in your fellowships. The stuff I won’t agree to in any G&S is yours to implement and teach if you wish. You simply cannot make me do it, and you can’t make me present it to the world. You personally get to take full responsibility for your individual teachings upon your own head.

    I have no authority to lead men astray, therefore I won’t do it. On the other hand, I am able to teach the Lord’s gospel, his doctrine and his law and his commandments. Therefore, I will do that.

    1. Log, have you read the proposed G&S from the lot group or did you decide outright that you will not sustain it no matter what it contains? I fail to understand what you are opposed to that is written in that document. Every single sentence is a direct quote, footnoted back to Christ's direct words in the Answer and Covenant, the scriptures, through Joseph Smith and Denver. If you have taken the covenant, you have already agreed to EVERYTHING that is currently contained in that document. I fail to understand what exactly, in that document, you are adamantly opposed to. Again, the words contained therein are not "our individual teachings", but Christ's. How can Christ's words "lead men astray"?

    2. CherryAnn,

      You may gain greater understanding if you read this:

      You are mistaken as to what I agreed to when I assented to the covenant.

    3. As to how God’s words can lead men astray:

      Jacob 4:14 But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

      To sin means, literally, to miss the mark. James tells us that sin is transgression of the law. Therefore, to miss the mark means to transgress the law. The Jews were blinded because they despised the commandments of the Lord, looked beyond his law, and sought for things they could not understand and God gave it to them so that they would stumble. Their stumbling led to their crucifying the Lord when he came to them.

      If you don’t know where others messed up, you may well find yourself travelling the path they travelled.

    4. Log, I have read through the questions and answers you have posted on your blog, and I have some questions for you of my own. I would comment there, but comments don't seem to be enabled.

      1. You have mentioned several times that people should discuss things on a neutral forum, and you propose the one that is hosted at remnantofjacob. A forum was attempted with one of the other proposals. What makes that forum non-neutral? Have any views been rejected from that forum? Why did another one need to be formed? I personally don't entirely trust the remnantofjacob site, and I find it curious that you want to direct people there to discuss things.

      2. I appreciate your views, even though I don't entirely agree with your reasoning. I think the Doctrine of Christ and Sermon at Bountiful (and on the Mount) are primary importance. However, I think that to serve those who know nothing of us, it is important to include other details that the Lord gave us. So how would you have us proceed at this point? Is the only option to agree with you and move forward with your proposal? If our roles were reversed, what would you want me to do?

      3. I have read your points, and respect your views and logic. Are these points and logic, in your view, also from the Lord? That is, are you willing to accept further revelation from the Lord on this topic, or do you feel that your position is the result of the answers you have obtained from the Lord on this issue, and His answer to you is complete?

      You may have answered some of these questions in the past, but I have not found them in your writings, so feel free to direct me to where I can read them. I hope I have not caused offense with any of these questions. I'm just wrestling with where to go from here.

    5. 1. What makes that forum non-neutral?

      Assuming you're speaking of Comeserve, they would not permit The Rock of Jesus Christ, or anything similar, to be proposed.

      2. Have any views been rejected from that forum?


      3. Why did another one need to be formed?

      Because there was no neutral forum where all viewpoints could be aired without censorship and without control. That's what Matthew Crockett of The Remnant of Jacob Forum has provided, at my request. He has agreed not to moderate, and the only condition for participation is that you have already assented to the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer.

      4. So how would you have us proceed at this point?

      We all agree, or should agree, on the Doctrine and the Sermon. So, the job's done: use the Doctrine and the Sermon. The problems are arising because some are trying to leverage more than we mutually agree upon on us.

      I won't agree to either less or more than the gospel of Jesus Christ, namely, the Doctrine and the Sermon, for the reasons stated, and more.

      4. Is the only option to agree with you and move forward with your proposal?

      Nobody is going to be compelled here, but consider carefully: we all already agree upon the Doctrine and the Sermon, which jointly are the gospel of Jesus Christ. The problems are arising because people are trying to stick us with more and less than the gospel and trying to cause the result to be put forth to the world. I won't agree to anything more or less than the gospel of Jesus Christ, neither will I put forth anything which tends to either harm or give cause for stumbling. The Golden Rule says we had not ought do to others what we do not wish others would do to us. The gospel, however, causes harm to none and gives no cause for stumbling, and we are commanded to preach it anyways.

      We can also wait until the Lord rejects us as a people.

      5. If our roles were reversed, what would you want me to do?

      Do whatever you feel is right under your obligations imposed by the covenant and the law and commandments of Jesus Christ, knowing that his church must be 1. called in his name, and 2. be built upon his gospel.

      It's almost like he foresaw this very discussion. See 3 Nephi 27. We are right now discussing what our church should be founded upon, and he's already answered us in the scriptures. If we try to build upon anything except his gospel - either more, or less - than we shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.

      6. Are these points and logic, in your view, also from the Lord?

      All truth is of the Lord.

      7. That is, are you willing to accept further revelation from the Lord on this topic, or do you feel that your position is the result of the answers you have obtained from the Lord on this issue, and His answer to you is complete?

      If the Lord directly commands me to put forth that which will lead men astray or cause them to stumble, as anything which is either more or less than his gospel must, then I will obey the Lord. By directly, I mean from heaven to me, not through a mortal. Because I do not have authority to lead men astray nor cause them to stumble, I will not agree to any G&S that consists of more or less than the gospel of Jesus Christ without being commanded by the Lord.

      I'm not claiming any "authority" here. The argument from authority is destructive of a society of equals, for if anyone can pull rank, we're not equal. Thus ends Zion. If we are equal, then I must persuade you, or you must persuade me. It works best if someone actually does know the truth, and can explain it. That is what I am doing.

      I am not offended by your asking. I have been hoping someone would, instead of begging off by saying "you've said enough; we can't possibly converse without contention." As I said, I am willing to explain why I am doing what I am doing. I have an obligation to persuade by pure knowledge, meekness, kindness, love unfeigned, and, when all that fails, long-suffering.

    6. Certainly, I think we can all agree that the Doctrine of Christ and the Sermon on the Mount/at Bountiful are of utmost importance, and should be either quoted in the G&S or the reader should be directed to read them. I guess the only part of your view that I disagree with is that those be the only thing in the G&S. The Lord said "Remember there are others who know nothing, as yet, of my work now underway, and therefore the guide and standard is to bless, benefit and inform them—so I command you to be wise in word and kind in deed as you write what I require
      of you."

      If the Doctrine of Christ and the Sermon were all that is needed, then why would the Lord require Denver to give ten lectures to the Mormon corridor? People have had those scriptures (in their current form) for over 150 years. It seems to me that a bit more would be helpful to bless and inform others who know nothing, as of yet, of the Lord's work going forward right now.

      As you have said, we all have an obligation to persuade each other. I am at this point, unpersuaded that only the Doctrine of Christ and Sermon should be included.

      I would also add that you could have easily started a post on with these same points. Did you attempt that, and it was removed? If so, I would like to know, because that would contradict my impression of the people who started that forum. If you truly want to persuade others, why wouldn't you utilize an option that would allow you to reach more people than the forum created by remnantofjacob (which, frankly, has not attracted very many participants)?

    7. This comment has been removed by the author.

    8. This comment has been removed by the author.

    9. 1. I guess the only part of your view that I disagree with is that those be the only thing in the G&S.

      The beauty of using only the gospel of Jesus Christ as our G&S is that you don’t have to agree with me. If at any point you feel the doctrine of our Lord or his law and commandments in the Sermon need to be added to or subtracted from, you are free to address this deficiency - within your own fellowship. And I don’t have to agree with your additions or subtractions to the Lord’s teachings within my own fellowship. Judge not, condemn not, motes / beams, and all that. We leave each other in peace to do as we will in conformity with our own understandings of the gospel, led only by the Holy Ghost.

      2. If the Doctrine of Christ and the Sermon were all that is needed, then why would the Lord require Denver to give ten lectures to the Mormon corridor?

      The prior question deserves more attention than it is getting: Did the Lord require Denver to give ten lectures to the Mormon corridor? How do you know? Do you have authority to make other people accept and trust your word on the answers?

      3. People have had those scriptures (in their current form) for over 150 years. It seems to me that a bit more would be helpful to bless and inform others who know nothing, as of yet, of the Lord's work going forward right now.

      Do you agree with the Lord in the A&C when he said: “All must come unto me or they cannot be saved. And how do men come unto me? It is by faith, repentance, and baptism, which bring the Holy Ghost to then show you all things you must know” (A&C p. 3)?

      And do you also agree with Nephi when he declared, as the doctrine of Christ: “For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do” (2 Nephi 32:5)?

      If the Holy Ghost teaches men all that they should know, and if the Holy Ghost also teaches men all things that they should do, then where does “a bit more” enter into the equation? Are you better than the Holy Ghost at blessing, benefiting, and informing people? I’m not. What do you have to add to “all things they should know and do?” Wouldn’t any addition to “all things they should know and do” be, by definition, more or less than what they should know and do? And wouldn’t telling more or less than they should know and do be to misinform them?

      4. As you have said, we all have an obligation to persuade each other. I am at this point, unpersuaded that only the Doctrine of Christ and Sermon should be included.

      And we don’t have to agree. When you agree with The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles, you’re free to make up for any deficiency you see in the Lord’s gospel - within your own fellowship - and I am free to teach as I wish as well, both of us in conformity with the guidance of the Holy Ghost to us individually, if we should care to be led by the Holy Ghost.

      5. I would also add that you could have easily started a post on with these same points. Did you attempt that, and it was removed?

      I submitted a proposal functionally equivalent to The Rock of Jesus Christ. I was rebuffed and informed it violated their interpretation of the A&C and that they would not post it. I pointed out that their interpretation of the A&C was not the only, and not even the most likely, interpretation, and was rebuffed again. That ended the conversation.

      6. If you truly want to persuade others, why wouldn't you utilize an option that would allow you to reach more people than the forum created by remnantofjacob (which, frankly, has not attracted very many participants)?

      I did, and was censored.

      If you don’t want to humble yourself and come and converse openly and publicly as equals at the Remnant of Jacob forum, nobody can make you.

    10. I think it is unfortunate that you were, as you put it, censored. I don't agree with that action. You might have mentioned that earlier, and gotten more participation at remnantofjacob.

      I agree that only the Doctrine of Christ is necessary to save. In my opinion, that is not what this is about. The G&S are about how we function as a group, not what will bring any of us salvation.

      Yes, I believe Denver was required by the Lord to give the ten lectures. No, I will not force that on anyone, however, I do find it curious that someone would accept the covenant as being from the Lord and binding and yet not believe that Denver, the channel through which that covenant came, is not a messenger from the Lord. Sure, it is possible that Denver was right with the Answer and Covenant, and yet was wrong with the whole ten lectures, but that seems to be a stretch to me. I have received my answer from the Lord, and I am doing my best to follow it, as I believe we all are.

      I just don't know how to reconcile everything and everyone.

    11. Does the Holy Ghost, which teaches men all that they should know and do, not tell men what to do with respect to their relationship with a group?

      Moses 7:27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

      As to comeserve, they get to do as they see fit, as do I.


    12. Log, the ordinance of the sacrament is not contained in the accounts we have of the Doctrine of Christ or the Sermons on the Mount or at Bountiful. Do you see the need to include that for the benefit of others?

    13. No. Those whom the Lord gives authority to perform ordinances and sends forth, the Lord instructs in how to perform them, as we see in 3 Nephi 11 concerning baptism, and 3 Nephi 18 concerning sacrament. All we would be doing by putting those things in a G&S is enabling pretenders, whom the Lord has not given authority nor sent, to ape the Lord’s ordinances.

      As an aside, did you notice that the Lord himself is not recorded as blessing the wine in 3 Nephi 18? It is recorded that he blessed the bread, but also the words he spoke to bless the bread are not recorded either. Where did the sacramental prayers in Moroni 4 and 5 come from?

      Why did the Nephites feel a need to fix the form of the sacrament? If the Lord didn’t do it that way, must we? Alma baptized differently from the words recorded in 3 Nephi 11; might that indicate that the ordinances need not be fixed? Just because he gave specific direction to the 12 at Bountiful, does that mean we need to follow it?

    14. Also, please note that 3 Nephi 18:5-16 is directed at the disciples, not the multitude. There should be one appointed among the disciples and to him would Jesus give power to break bread and bless and give to those who would repent and be baptized in his name. Only one, apparently. And for always doing as they were commanded, Jesus said they, the disciples, were blessed, and built upon his rock.

    15. You certainly have a unique view. While I don't agree, you are certainly welcome to it. You present a very wide gulf between what you will accept and what everyone I have communicated with on this topic will accept.

      I read your post about "accidentally" making the covenant. Do you feel that the covenant is binding upon you? It seems you don't accept Denver as a servant sent from the Lord, so why would the covenant be in any way binding upon you, since it was given through him? Forgive me if this is offensive to you, but I find it very confusing.

    16. As a fellowservant said, “you can’t unring the bell.” Once I assented to the covenant despite my unworthiness, I became bound to fulfill the conditions of the covenant, including the production and adoption of the G&S. If y’all had done it before I got here, I’d have nothing to say about it.

      I believe Denver. But I don’t get to stick others with my beliefs. That breaks the Rule. And since I know that having a king leads to slavery (Ether 6:22-24, Mosiah’s last speech, Noah) - whether we use the words “prophet” or “servant” or “messenger” to mask the fact that we mean “king” - I will not submit to a G&S which either explicitly or implicitly places Denver in a position not equal to even the least of us, neither will I put anyone else in a position of having to look to Denver for the word of the Lord when they should be taking the Holy Ghost for their guide and obtaining the word of the Lord directly through diligence in keeping the commandments and mighty prayer.

      Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the Lord: Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

  10. Thanks for your great efforts in this preliminary G&S. I have the following in word format but with the time crunch I am not sure the best way to submit it. Thus I do so as a comment here. Please reply with a better method if there is one.

    Part 1: Here are several additional items that I think would be pertinent to this document, have given me hope, and that have been emphasized in this movement:

    “Priesthood should serve and not rule over any man” PTR Page ix.

    The Restoration through Joseph Smith:
    “Whether you belong to some denomination claiming Joseph as a founder, or you are a traditional Christian, the things restored through Joseph Smith came from God as a gift to all. Because of this, we all have the responsibility to remember and respect the inspired work of Joseph Smith.
    “The restoration is God’s call to action and offer to renew His direct contact with mankind.” PTR Page vii
    “[The Gospel of Jesus Christ] should free your soul, and reunite you with heaven itself.” PTR Page ix.
    “[T]he entire restoration is nothing more than a modern affirmation of the New Testament promise found in James 1:5.” PTR Page x.
    “Joseph equates redemption and repentance with our hearts and minds. The greatest obstacle to salvation is ignorance.” PTR Page 3.
    “Joseph delivered only what Christ wanted. It is now up to us to choose to listen for the Master’s voice, or to dismiss them as only Joseph’s words. If we recognize the Master's voice then we received the message from Him.” PTR page 22.
    “When we fail to heed Christ’s message, fail to recognize His voice, then the Lord’s anger is riled. His disappointment is palpable. When He communicates, using servants to deliver His message, we should be very careful not reject or ignore what He has to say.” PTR page 22.
    “Joseph’s credential was that he possessed Christ’s words.” PTR page 24.

    Jesus Christ, the prototype of the Saved Man:
    “I proclaim: I, too, know Christ lives! I have seen Him. I know He is the universal Savior of all mankind, whether they know Him or not. Whether they accept Him or not, He died for them. He suffered for them. He atoned for your sins, if you will receive Him. He paid a price for mankind which was infinite in scope and has the ability to heal every wound, repair every failure, forgive every wrong, and overcome every shortcoming. Much of that He will do without regard to whether we accept or reject Him. But the fullness of the blessings available through the price He paid is provided only to those who accept and follow Him.” The Second Comforter: Conversing with the Lord Through the Veil page 409.
    "Christ admonished us: 'Be of good cheer.'" PTR page 1.
    "Any difficulty we will face, He already faced with greater difficulty. He won an eternal prize for each of us." PTR Page 1.
    "It is ... possible to pass through the veil before death [which] ...may include here and now. If it is not all to be comprehended ‘in this world,’ then we need to visit the world behind the veil." PTR page 2.
    “[K]nowledge revealed by heaven is dynamic. Pondering provides deeper meaning.” PTR page 3.
    “It is necessary to obtain the knowledge to be redeemed.” PTR Page 3.

    1. The Comment above was submitted by Andy Boucher (

  11. Hey, if you want to get authority from Chris Hammil, Denver, lots, or a committee, go right ahead. It don't matter to me where you have acquired your authority, or the statistical probability of getting authorized, or the symbolic quantity of people comprising the committee, or where they are geographically located. All that matters to me is that something is written that represents my mutual agreement. Something that I can wax confident in. This current effort from lots does not represent mutual agreement with me, nor do I think it kind to those who are not yet with us.

    The video depicts the method of approach as "cut and paste" words of people with credibility like Denver, Joseph, or Christ, ...and then we submit it as our best unified guess, and see what God does in response. They all agreed that their own words would only cause problems. I think differently. It should only be written in our words, expressing our unity, and not quoting others. It ought to be an indicator of our faith. Cut and paste is not an expression of our faith, but writing it in our own words totally is.

    Cutting and pasting words that already have credibility rely's on the faith of others in the absence of our own. Faith doesn't work like that. That method does not represent my understanding of God's correct attributes, perfections and characteristics, for this assignment. I have no confidence in this method of approach, like submitting a paper to get a teacher's response, so I can give the teacher what he's looking for. I do not know that this method's path is acceptable to God. And according to the video, neither did they. To them it is a matter of doubt and uncertainty.

    Rob Adolpho

    1. I see your point, but writing in our own words has been tried, and seems to be rejected, precisely because others couldn't determine where the points came from, and if they were based on revelation from God, or just the logic of mortals. In all sincerity, what would you suggest is the proper path forward? What would be acceptable to you?

  12. Part 2: Here are several additional items that I think would be pertinent to this document, have given me hope, and that have been emphasized in this movement:
    Personal Revelation:
    “We should labor over the scriptures, pondering to hear the still, small voice.” PTR page 9.
    “The pattern is to study scripture, ask God to help you understand, then listen to God’s answer. God would like to talk directly to you. The scriptures have a message from God for you. To be saved you must know God. God will speak to each of us about what is important in our lives. All things past, present, and future are continually before the Lord. God’s revelations have depth and layers beyond the human mind because they originate from a higher source. The most important thing to know is the Lord's will for you.” PTR page 10.
    “If we want an answer, ask God, but we need to be prepared to act when the answer comes.” PTR page 10.
    “Joseph restored a faith demanding we awake and arise. We must ask God to remove the scales that blind us. The blinding ‘scales,’ are a darkness, and an incorrect weight and measure. We have no reason to err, because we can ask God for the answer. If our judgment is not just, our dark scales will condemn us. Care is required to correctly distinguish between what is God’s and what is the devil’s.” PTR Page 12-13.
    Power of Godliness (Seeking the face of Jesus Christ while in the flesh):
    “Godliness means to be godly, or close to God.” PTR page 14.
    “In the truest sense, to be close to God is to be in His presence.” PTR page 14.
    “The Lord intends for us to return to Him; not in some future reunion following death, but here, in mortality. He wants us to 'know Him.'” PTR Page 14.
    “This is to occur ‘while in the flesh.’ The Lord wants for us to have “godliness” with the power to be near Him.” PTR page 15.
    “We should not dismiss this power of godliness. It is a very real part of the gospel. It is intended to be part of what we receive while here, not merely some distant hope for the afterlife.”
    “The ‘power of godliness’ requires us to be confident to seek God’s presence.
    “The Book of Mormon continually relates accounts of those with the power of godliness. It is all about the ascent back to the presence of God. Testimony after testimony, experience after experience shows that godliness is the Book Mormon message. The ascent to God is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.” PTR page 19.
    “Joseph Smith said, 'I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of godliness.' This is the Book of Mormon theme. Search deeper and find God.” PTR page 19.
    Seek the Mysteries of God:
    “'Ask that you may know the mysteries of God.' ...That is a commandment.” PTR page 20.
    “The claim that we should stay away from the mysteries of God is false. Refusing to follow the command to ‘ask that you may know the mysteries of God’ denies the power of godliness and opposes the doctrine of salvation. It is anti-Christ.” PTR page 20.

    Thanks for your consideration.

    Andy Boucher

  13. Part 3: Here are several additional items that I think would be pertinent to this document, have given me hope, and that have been emphasized in this movement:
    (The Foundation of) Zion:
    “The foundation of Zion requires reestablishing a connection between living children and those fathers to whom God made promises.” PTR page 32.
    “The fathers who are in heaven are the ones with whom we ... must form the link. Our salvation and the salvation of our kindred dead depend on it.” PTR page 32-33.
    Family of God:
    “Christ compared Himself to a 'true vine' to which we all must connect if we are going to bear fruit. Christ inspired prophecies about a coming servant. We should all be His servants. For any of His servants to produce 'fruit' they must connect to Him, 'the true vine.' Life comes from that connection. We are preserved by Christ, nourished through His word, and we pray in our sacrament prayers to always have His Spirit to be with us. The 'vine' and 'fruit' refer to the 'family of God.' The context is about becoming a 'son of God.' He intends to make many sons of God, to bring many sons unto glory. (In this and the preceding verse the language is in the masculine, 'sons.' However, there is never an exalted son without a wife, as will be discussed more fully later in this book. Therefore these passages should be read implicitly to say both 'sons' and 'daughters.') These promises lie at the foundation of the restoration promised in the last days.
    “In [the] first interview the angel taught [Joseph] about restoring God’s holy family. God wants to have His family on the earth again.” PTR page 34.

    Part 3: I have a few suggested modifications for consideration:
    I believe that the title Baptism should say "Baptism/Rebaptism"
    I believe that the quotation from RE Moroni 8:2 should not omit the words "yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children."

    Thanks for your consideration.

    Andy Boucher

  14. This is wonderful! I am in 100% agreement with this guide and standard.

    Tina Saunders

  15. Thank you to the seven who worked and sacrificed this week to put this together! I appreciate your efforts and I support this document too.

  16. I remember every detail of where I was, what I was wearing, the sounds and people around me and the joy I felt in that first encounter with the original. That moment is indelible: the Spirit confirmed to me that the heavens are indeed open for business again. Every subsequent version has had good parts, nice additions, valid points of contribution, but I have also sensed a dilution of the original Spirit of the thing, and I was saddened. Realizing that it is likely impossible to move forward from this gridlock otherwise, I have supported the lots process, I support that product, and I'm grateful to all who had a hand in it. I've read Log's persuasive pleas to get back to the Sermon on the Mount, Lori's heartfelt explanations, Rob's heartwrenching laments, and many others. Each has an incredibly important viewpoint which I feel blessed for having encountered. This has been such an arduous and difficult process that many hearts have been wounded, many of my friends have been so spiritually and mentally overwhelmed that they just closed up shop and left town on the whole thing. I guess there are a thousand ways this could go, and perhaps the Lord would be agreeable and easy to entreat on any of them. For here, for now, with the clock ticking and the millennium fast approaching I stand up here and raise my hand in favor of the Guide and Standard as compiled by the "seven lotsters", with sincere gratitude, a hand of fellowship, and a bond of love to every single person who has cared enough about this work to engage. God bless you dear, dear people.

  17. This comment has been removed by the author.