Saturday, November 25, 2017

A Guide and Standard Chosen by Lots-UPDATE (11/25/17)

We have now done as the Lord requested: the body, as well as His servant David, have been presented with the Guide and Standard. Upon completion of those two requests, the path forward was made clear by the Lord. By Sunday evening there will be another update outlining that direction.

The 7


  1. I dissent from this proposal.

    Jared Livesey

    1. I stand as a witness - the Lord has spoken through the seven chosen by lots according to faith n the Lord Jesus Christ. You people of God know His voice. You judge and discern His voice for yourselves. Do you hear Him in the shrill, contentious, and divisive voice of men you hear constantly pounding you to follow them and believe their words? Or do you hear His voice gently encouraging you to come to Him and unite in Him with those who accept His words given through your faith through those chosen and guided by Him. It is your combined faith in our Redeemer that has led to the many miracles that have resulted in God’s own voice to His people
      to this point.

      There is no argument more compelling that the Lord has spoken and is guiding His people through the things spoken by the seven than the ongoing barrage of opposition that includes tones of control, compulsion and dominion. We have all had enough of that where we left to be free.

      Listen for the voice of God. Do you hear it speaking peace to you? Or do you hear the voice of God in those telling you you must hear and believe them or lose Zion?

      God is bringing Zion - it will not be men that do that. His work is underway. You can listen to His voice and follow Him, or you can succumb to the fear of contentious men. You choose! Be free! Come unto the Lord our God and hear His voice. Follow Him.

    2. "Even people of God get it wrong sometimes"

      --Nephi, probably.

    3. Twice they got it right. A third time is prophesied. It will happen. But not without faith in the King.

    4. Lack of unity and division is most likely of greater concern than any other Zion destroying flaw among the people now.

      It is true, we should avoid idolatry in its every form. However, if idolatry is to be avoided, and it certainly is, then causing division and driving wedges causing disunity among the people is equally destructive as idolatry. We should set our differences aside and live in peace and cooperation we should be united in Christ the Redeemer.

      Suggestions of casting someone out because they don’t accept the statement of principles accepted by the Lord is poppy cock. Who ever suggested that? Who really believes that the Lord would dismiss, or the people would dismiss anyone who chose not to accept the statement of principles accepted by the Lord? I personally find it astounding that anyone would refuse the word of the Lord when given. I find it equally astounding someone would suggest that will be the final division among the people. But that is absolutely every persons right to believe if they wish. The person’s choice about a statement o principles doesn’t require the person to be “excommunicated” as someone has suggested. It only means that we agree to disagree. And while we disagree, we continue to abide together in respect and love and cooperation. We will disagree on a lot of things. The test is found in the way we choose to treat each other through the disagreements we may have.

      I think some are failing the test of harmony, unity, and cooperation as God’s people. The statement of principles we adopt is not the be all end All trigger mechanism that decides whether we are acceptable to God or to one another. The test - the real trigger, is the condition of our hearts toward one another throughout the process and after the Lord has said it is complete to His satisfaction. Those willing to unite, putting faith in Christ and His words alone, laying aside all division, will be found aligned in the way the Lord has said is required.

      D&C 105:

      2 Behold, I say unto you, were it not for the transgressions of my people, speaking concerning the church and not individuals, they might have been redeemed even now.
      3 But behold, they have not learned to be obedient to the things which I required at their hands, but are full of all manner of evil, and do not impart of their substance, as becometh saints, to the poor and afflicted among them;

      4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

      5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.

      Please - let us unite in our Redeemer in spite of our differences. Our differences should not divide us. We have enough that unites us that we should never allow division among us. We can continue to have differences but still live together united in peace and cooperation and the love the Lord has said He requires of us.

      We invite All to unite in the Lord our Redeemer. We are only divided if we choose to be divided. Division flies in the face of our God who has reprimanded us for our treatment of one another.

      Our Unity is greater than being right to the point we feel to dig our heels in with hard hearts.

    5. The part about casting out those who don't agree is in Shalyce's voicing the Lord:

      >At this point, you have a unity with the body. They agree with these words, and this document will suffice.

      Either her wording is false, or those who disagree are not part of the body.

    6. Precisely! There is division. Shouldn’t be division.

      D&C 105:

      4 And are not united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom;

      5 And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.

      Those working hard to perpetuate division among the people are doing something as bad as idolatry - choke on one sin - swallow the other. Either sin will destroy Zion.

      We must unite as the Lord has commanded. And that has little to do with what we may disagree on. We will always disagree on stuff. Let it go. Soften hearts - Unite in Christ our Lord. Hear His voice follow His words.


    Last night I had a dream.(I did not have a dream, I'm making this up.) I was in the spirit world. I was having a conversation with people from all times, nations, and dispensations.

    We each talked about our unique situations. "I lived in the time of Moses," one said, "as we were led out of Egypt." "I lived as a Nephite near the time of Jesus." "I fought alongside Coriantmur." "I was a pioneer who crossed the plains and settled Utah." said others.

    Finally it was my turn. "I lived in the days of Denver Snuffer," I said.

    A hush fell over the crowd.

    Then they all started laughing. "You were part of the group that failed because they couldn't come to mutual agreement on a statement of principles," they said with tears of laughter. "We failed over golden calf orgies, secret combinations, genocide, and polygamous secret combinations! We got rich and got laid," they said. "What do you have to show for your broken covenant?"

    "Ummmm...I had a really cool iPhone. I mean, I didn't have to break a covenant or anything to get it, but it was still cool."

    I woke up, really, really embarrassed.

    I guess I'm willing to support the G&S. It's not the one I would've written. It's not even in my top 3 preferred G&S versions. But I have little faith in the ability of the group to mutually agree on anything else. I really hope that God doesn't interpret the phrase "mutual agreement" to mean 100% of covenant takers. If it does mean 100% then I don't like our chances. I don't like the idea that 100% is obtained by removing any non-supporters from the covenant body.

    I don't know how we get to Zion from here. But I remain hopeful, believing that Christ has accomplished harder things. I ask Him to have mercy on us.

    But could I ask just one little thing of y'all? Could we stop calling Denver "His servant David"? It's pretty cringey and feels a lot like "beloved prophet."

  3. Totally agree on the "servant David" stuff.

    Thanks for a great comment.

  4. Yo,

    The "His Servant David" stuff came from quoting the Lord. It's not designed to be adoration. Simply a statement of fact. Don't we all aspire to be the Lord's servants? Isn't the servant to call other servants into the vineyard? Servant is not an honorific title--it is a notation of subservience, in this case, to the Lord.

    Why should that make us cringe? It's quite the opposite of the "beloved prophet" stuff.

    Christ said the greatest among us should be the least and the servant of all. Let's not cringe at servants.

  5. I am in agreement we could and should stop using "His Servant David." It sounds pompous from our lips. But that's just my little thought.

  6. Part 1: What if this is simply a test to see if we, as a people, can discern and accept true messengers sent from the Father to teach us?

    “I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge” Abraham

    “I tell you, if you want to ascend to the Heavenly Council, you must first acknowledge and give heed to the messengers sent by them.” St. John (emphasis added)

    “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word.” The Lord to Hyrum Smith;

    Questions and Answers
    February 9, 2010 Denver
    I get asked a lot of questions. The other day someone asked how “to write only what the Spirit directs?”
    That requires something quite subtle and hard to keep. The presence of the Spirit, its constant companionship, guidance and influence is so refined and difficult a matter to put into words that even the scriptures do not give an adequate account of the process.
    Obedience is required, but there are obedient people who are utterly without the Spirit. Obedience can make a person rigid and unyielding, when they ought instead to be meek and pliable.
    Discipline is required, but not if it makes a person dogmatic…but a disciple follows the Master…
    These words, like so many others fail to capture just how great and fine a balance is required for the Spirit to provide direction.
    Meekness is required, but not in the way the world thinks of meekness. …
    The process almost defies words. It is very real, in fact tangible. But the way in which you know it to be right involves an ability to feel the balance, taste the good, harmonize with the greater intelligence which pervades everything that is. It comes from Him. It is Him, in a very real sense. All things were made by Him, bear record of Him, and are a testimony of His way.
    Writing the words of eternal life require someone to have eternal life. They can still be mortal, but they need the promise of eternal life. So I suppose the Lord’s admonition: “Seek first the kingdom of God, and all things shall be added thereto” really answers the question. Or as told to Hyrum: “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word.” The one must precede the other. At least the statement of the Lord to His disciples, and the revelation to Hyrum Smith seem to indicate as much. (Emphasis added)

  7. Part 2 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?” (Paul to the Romans 10:14,15) Paul asserted he was an apostle but his calling did not come because of a transfer of authority to him by Peter. He was called by God. He begins the first few words of his epistle to the Galatians: “Paul, an apostle (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)” (Galatians 1:1)
    Was Paul therefore sent? By whom was he sent? You think it obvious no doubt, but the principle is critical to finding true faith in Jesus Christ. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. If Paul was an apostle because Christ sent him – not men or man –then for a preacher to be sent to preach the truth the same should be required today as then. If Christ does not require the same then Christ has changed and we know that cannot be true, for He is the same forever. If, therefore, a preacher must be sent then Christ must do the sending. Then the only preacher you should heed must be one who declares plainly that he has been sent by God. That was the claim of Joseph Smith.” Denver Snuffer, 1st Address to Christians (emphasis added)

    “As one who, like the Apostle Paul, has stood in the presence of Christ, and likewise been caught up into heaven and been taught unspeakable things, I know from the Lord’s own voice my standing before Him.” Denver Snuffer, Christian Rejection 3/16/2017

    The document written by the 7 is nothing more and nothing less than the words of the Lord, Jesus Christ, as found in already canonized scripture and the words given to a true messenger in our day, a messenger who has been sent by the Fathers to teach us, even Denver Snuffer, jr.

  8. Where It All Went Wrong

    2 Nephi 32:5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

    All must come unto me or they cannot be saved. And how do men come unto me? It is by faith, repentance, and baptism, which bring the Holy Ghost to then show you all things you must know (A&C, p. 3).

    So, the Holy Ghost, given to us when we exercise faith in Jesus, repent from all our sins, and are baptized, shows us everything we should do, and everything we should know. If one takes the Holy Ghost for their guide, they have no need for any mortal to teach them, as John noted (1 John 2:20, 27).

    Where did the Church go wrong?

    If the gentiles unto whom the Book of Mormon was given had hearkened unto the Holy Ghost they would have come unto me in Hyrum and Joseph’s day. But they did not hearken, and would not allow me to abide with them in word, and in power and in very deed (A&C, p. 3).

    They did not listen to the Holy Ghost, which would have told them all that they should know and all that they should do. Who were they listening to?

    In a citation from The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 237, we find the following account:

    President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

    Instead of listening to the Holy Ghost, they listened to Joseph Smith, who, while a prophet, was yet a man.

    So, what’s the lesson we should learn from the Church?

    Jeremiah 17:5 ¶ Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

    2 Nephi 4:34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

    2 Nephi 28:31 [Thus saith the Lord:] Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    The lesson we should learn from the Church is that trusting in a man, even if that man is a prophet, leads to cursings and condemnations by the Lord, and that we should instead take the Holy Ghost for our guide.

    In a passage from Denver Snuffer, we read the following:

    If you understood the scriptures you wouldn’t even need what I’ve written.

    And how do we become able to understand the scriptures?

    In another passage from Denver Snuffer, we read this:

    The journey back to Him begins with all He has provided and preserved of His word. It begins for each of us in the scriptures. One of the immediate effects of baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost is to have the scriptures come alive; to have them overwhelm you with revelation, light and truth. It is not you doing this. It is you experiencing it, but the Holy Spirit opening and lighting them so the same Spirit which gave them at first now receives them in you.

    So, it is the Holy Ghost which gives us power to understand the scriptures.

    According to Denver Snuffer, if you took the Holy Ghost for your guide, you wouldn’t need Denver Snuffer. It seems then that following a man, even a man who is a prophet, is the behavior of people who have not taken the Holy Ghost for their guide.

  9. Even if you will yourselves take Denver to be your guide, why would you teach others who have not yet taken Denver to be their guide to commit the same fatal error?

  10. I really appreciate the efforts of all those involved. Thank you. I am ok with the content of the document and actually happy with it. To me, it is about the content. Not about who it came from. Not the personalities. Does it contain truth and light? Will it help others? Most of all, will God accept it? Hoping and praying we will be able to move forward.